Sam Wilson should be called Captain Falcon

[whiterabbit]

Until Marvel is willing for one of the 8th smartest men on Earth to be African-American, no black tech hero is going to see much luck.

The Black Panther run was only given six episodes. All the anime stuff were limited to 12. Those are both far removed from Saturday morning cartoon time like Marvel's current stuff.

Note: Black Panther is always going to be a tough sell for African-Americans because he comes from a fictional African nation. Also, it's supposed to be the most technologically advanced nation on Earth, yet their equivalent of The Secret Service typically run around in loin cloth and carry spears.

I don't know about that, man. They showed Wakanda's importance in the cinematic universe through the vibranium ore, as mentioned in Captain America and during Avengers 2. I don't see how Black Panther would be a tough sell when there's gods and aliens running around and he's been affiliated with America for a long time (he did get a degree at Oxford lol).

[Teste]

Hell, Mjolnir is a perfect example of that, unless I missed the comic where Loki needs to make amends for shaving off Sif's blonde hair while she slept, and then attempts to make amends by tricking some dwarves into competing to make the best gifts for his family, including Mjolnir. After watching 'Age of Ultron' my buddy and I laughed at Vision's comment that Mjolnir is perfectly weighted, because part of the legend of its creation is that the handle is too short because Loki turned into a gnat and bit the dwarf working the bellows.

Yep. You missed Loki: Volume 2, which tells exactly that story. The resemblance between the comics Thor and the mythological Thor is there... For those who know where to look for it.

Man, I really wish there were some sort of clear established guidelines for when it is or is not okay for a superhero to change their name. Although I imagine a lot of it would just folded arms, pouting lips, and dancing around the real reason why people are upset Sam is going by Captain America.

Oh? Pray tell, why doesn't you share your wisdom with us and tell us "the real reason why people are upset Sam is going by Captain America"?

[JoeWithoutFear]

If he didn't use the wings, it would work best as Captain America. In other words, if he just took up the mantle and BECAME Captain America. But, keeping the wings makes a lot of sense because here is a hero who has done nothing but use wings to fight. So, just because he is taking up the role of Capt. America, it would not make sense for him to leave his best technique behind.

The problem is that the wings are synonymous w/ Falcon and the shield/colors(/name) are synonymous w/ Captain America. It's been very awkward to mix the two, especially since throwing and blocking with a shield are motions that are somewhat at odds with keeping your arms locked in any one position to steer wings. I think the best solution would have been to give Falcon NEW wings that operated separately from his arms, like Archangel's. With that in place, you could play up the Eagle angle of the American symbolism and move away from the Falcon thing. BUT, if you did all that, the Falcon fans would be up in arms saying that it wasn't true to the character.

So, in the end, you get a somewhat dichotomous result that has a lot of people unpleased. But, instead of acknowledging these reasons or any of the other reasons, if you don't like Sam as Cap, people just prefer to call you racist. =P

For the record, Ben Riley as the Scarlet Spider is my favorite Spider-hero of all time. I hated it when he became "Spider-Man." I never felt he was "Spider-Man." Neither did most comic fans -- which is why he was killed off and replaced after not very long.

[PiercedMonk]

Yep. You missed Loki: Volume 2, which tells exactly that story. The resemblance between the comics Thor and the mythological Thor is there... For those who know where to look for it.

You're right, I did miss that one. Though, if in that book, the origin of Mjolnir is presented as being the same as it was in the actual legends, than that's a departure from the original Stan & Jack comics.

Regardless, my point still stands. Marvel's Thor and the Thor of Norse mythology probably shouldn't be considered the same character. For one, it's kind of insulting to those people who practice Asatru, and for another, there's are some significant differences. Which is a good thing. Comics creators should be free to take their characters in new and interesting places.

No one's debating that Marvel's Thor was obviously inspired by the Norse tales, but Marvel's Thor is still a relatively new creation.

Oh? Pray tell, why doesn't you share your wisdom with us and tell us "the real reason why people are upset Sam is going by Captain America"?

Nine times out of ten, it's bigotry. Which sucks for the one guy who has some genuine objection which isn't motivated by an irrational response to seeing a black man being called Captain America -- or a woman wielding Mjolnir, or Iceman coming out as homosexual, or Ultimate Spider-Man being black hispanic, or Ms. Marvel being muslim, or even something as silly as Carol Danver's new hairstyle -- because no one wants to be in camp bigot. However if that's where you'g going to set up your tent, maybe it's time to reevaluate your positions.

Look, I try to assume the best of everyone, but when people keep trying to find a new angle of attack in attempting to diminish minority characters, their motivations start to become suspect.

And I get it! I really do. There are characters that I'm passionate about as well. My favourite character is Green Arrow. Not just in comics, but in fiction. Specifically the amalgam that exists in my head of the Oliver Queen that was appearing on JLU at the same time as when I first discovered the Mike Grell comics, but let's just call him Pre-Flashpoint Green Arrow. And Ollie was killed off and replaced with a diversity legacy character. Although, Connor Hawke is also awesome; easily a top ten character for me. However New 52 Oliver Queen is not my Green Arrow -- though Jeff Lemire's run on the title was really good -- and the Oliver Queen showing up on 'Arrow' is certainly not my Green Arrow. The Ollie that was in the INJUSTICE comic was pretty close, despite the terrible costume, but he got killed pretty hard fairly early into things. My Green Arrow no longer exists, and DC seems somewhat dedicated to erasing him with a string of really poorly written stories -- Jeff Lemire not included -- about some douche bag half his age in a terrible costume. However, I'm not going to rant and rave about it, and make a ton of threads about how DC is disrespecting a legacy stretching all the way back to Robin Hood by having this crappy frat boy imposter. I'm certainly not going harass creators on social media. Instead, I'll just read other comics that I do like. Or re-read my Mike Grell GREEN ARROW issues. Or watch JLU.

[MichaelC]

Personally I'd change his name to American Eagle. I know there's a character using that name, but he's such a Z-lister that Sam taking it would be no big deal.

[whiterabbit]

You're right, I did miss that one. Though, if in that book, the origin of Mjolnir is presented as being the same as it was in the actual legends, than that's a departure from the original Stan & Jack comics.

Regardless, my point still stands. Marvel's Thor and the Thor of Norse mythology probably shouldn't be considered the same character. For one, it's kind of insulting to those people who practice Asatru, and for another, there's are some significant differences. Which is a good thing. Comics creators should be free to take their characters in new and interesting places.

No one's debating that Marvel's Thor was obviously inspired by the Norse tales, but Marvel's Thor is still a relatively new creation.



Nine times out of ten, it's bigotry. Which sucks for the one guy who has some genuine objection which isn't motivated by an irrational response to seeing a black man being called Captain America -- or a woman wielding Mjolnir, or Iceman coming out as homosexual, or Ultimate Spider-Man being black hispanic, or Ms. Marvel being muslim, or even something as silly as Carol Danver's new hairstyle -- because no one wants to be in camp bigot. However if that's where you'g going to set up your tent, maybe it's time to reevaluate your positions.

Look, I try to assume the best of everyone, but when people keep trying to find a new angle of attack in attempting to diminish minority characters, their motivations start to become suspect.

And I get it! I really do. There are characters that I'm passionate about as well. My favourite character is Green Arrow. Not just in comics, but in fiction. Specifically the amalgam that exists in my head of the Oliver Queen that was appearing on JLU at the same time as when I first discovered the Mike Grell comics, but let's just call him Pre-Flashpoint Green Arrow. And Ollie is killed off and replaced with a diversity legacy character. Although, Connor Hawke is also awesome; easily a top ten character for me. However New 52 Oliver Queen is not my Green Arrow -- though Jeff Lemire's run on the title was really good -- and the Oliver Queen showing up on 'Arrow' is certainly not my Green Arrow. The Ollie that was in the INJUSTICE comic was pretty close, despite the terrible costume, but he got killed pretty hard fairly early into things. My Green Arrow no longer exists, and DC seems somewhat dedicated to erasing him with a string of really poorly written stories -- Jeff Lemire not included -- about some douche bag half his age in a terrible costume. However, I'm not going to rant and rave about it, and make a ton of threads about how DC is disrespecting a legacy stretching all the way back to Robin Hood by having this crappy frat boy imposter. I'm certainly not going harass creators on social media. Instead, I'll just read other comics that I do like. Or re-read my Mike Grell GREEN ARROW issues. Or watch JLU.

If they killed Storm off and replaced her with a white woman with the same powers, I can personally guarantee that everyone would call it racist. Wouldn't you agree? Then why is it socially acceptable to make Wally West black?

[PiercedMonk]

If they killed Storm off and replaced her with a white woman with the same powers, I can personally guarantee that everyone would call it racist. Wouldn't you agree? Then why is it socially acceptable to make Wally West black?

First, those aren't the same thing. I'm not sure if killing Storm and introducing a new character with that name would necessarily be bad, though I'd not be willing to put money on it being handled well. However, if at the end of Secret Wars, it turns out that the Storm that makes it through to the other side is white, yeah, people will be upset and justifiably so. Just as people were upset when New 52 Connor Hawke turned out to be a red headed white dude.

The fact of the matter is that for most minority characters, their minority status is an intrinsic aspect of their characterization. With the exception of Nazis, there aren't many white characters for whom being white is a core aspect. Just to be clear, because I know people are going to want to misconstrue that last statement, I'm not saying that all white people are Nazis, or that any other such nonsense; what I'm saying is that straight, white, and male is the default in western culture, and anything that deviates from the default is usually done so with some sort of motivation.

Continuing with the example of Storm, she was worshipped as a Goddess in Kenya. Leaving aside for the moment the fact that Marvel really does need to do something about their depictions of African peoples, there is no way they could get away with having a white woman with that backstory. Part of Connor Hawke's characterization was that as a person of mixed race, he felt like an outcast. There's nothing intrinsically white about Wally West; he can have the exact same personality and characterization, regardless of his ethnicity.

Further, introducing a minority character to take up the mantle previously held by a white character is correcting an imbalance to more accurately reflect the world around us. Replacing a minority character with a white one is contributing to that imbalance. A fan of Wally West doesn't lose anything if Wally West is black. However, a fan of Storm might have first become interested in the character because she was one of the few characters in the comics that reflected themselves.

And you could make the argument that comics publishers should just create new characters and let them succeed or fail on their own, that ignores the fact that the vast majority of new characters are going to fail, regardless. Kamala Khan is the exception, not the rule, and it's not that difficult to find people still angry about Marvel forcing a Muslim character on to their readers. Hell, DC just recently previewed the new Dr. Fate, and people are upset that he's Middle Eastern. Marvel -- and DC, though to a lesser extent -- are catching on to the fact that there are whole underserved demographics that are interested in buying comic books, and are starting to reach out to them, but there's still a long road to travel.

Look, I hope that, if nothing else, we can all agree that we want the world to be the best possible place it can be for all peoples, yeah? As the French say, Liberté, Equalité, Fraternité. Moving towards a more egalitarian society requires correcting the existing imbalance. Increasing diversity and representation in picture books about people punching one another and shooting lighting out of the nipples is not going to fix society's woes, but it might contribute to a culture where fixing society's woes is a possibility.

[t hedge coke]

If they killed Storm off and replaced her with a white woman with the same powers, I can personally guarantee that everyone would call it racist. Wouldn't you agree? Then why is it socially acceptable to make Wally West black?

Because of decades - well, centuries - of white actors playing all the roles, often by dawning a racist costume and dirtying their face a little. Something that is still happening now, today. So, it's just balancing out a bit now.

[whiterabbit]

First, those aren't the same thing. I'm not sure if killing Storm and introducing a new character with that name would necessarily be bad, though I'd not be willing to put money on it being handled well. However, if at the end of Secret Wars, it turns out that the Storm that makes it through to the other side is white, yeah, people will be upset and justifiably so. Just as people were upset when New 52 Connor Hawke turned out to be a red headed white dude.

The fact of the matter is that for most minority characters, their minority status is an intrinsic aspect of their characterization. With the exception of Nazis, there aren't many white characters for whom being white is a core aspect. Just to be clear, because I know people are going to want to misconstrue that last statement, I'm not saying that all white people are Nazis, or that any other such nonsense; what I'm saying is that straight, white, and male is the default in western culture, and anything that deviates from the default is usually done so with some sort of motivation.

Continuing with the example of Storm, she was worshipped as a Goddess in Kenya. Leaving aside for the moment the fact that Marvel really does need to do something about their depictions of African peoples, there is no way they could get away with having a white woman with that backstory. Part of Connor Hawke's characterization was that as a person of mixed race, he felt like an outcast. There's nothing intrinsically white about Wally West; he can have the exact same personality and characterization, regardless of his ethnicity.

Further, introducing a minority character to take up the mantle previously held by a white character is correcting an imbalance to more accurately reflect the world around us. Replacing a minority character with a white one is contributing to that imbalance. A fan of Wally West doesn't lose anything if Wally West is black. However, a fan of Storm might have first become interested in the character because she was one of the few characters in the comics that reflected themselves.

And you could make the argument that comics publishers should just create new characters and let them succeed or fail on their own, that ignores the fact that the vast majority of new characters are going to fail, regardless. Kamala Khan is the exception, not the rule, and it's not that difficult to find people still angry about Marvel forcing a Muslim character on to their readers. Hell, DC just recently previewed the new Dr. Fate, and people are upset that he's Middle Eastern. Marvel -- and DC, though to a lesser extent -- are catching on to the fact that there are whole underserved demographics that are interested in buying comic books, and are starting to reach out to them, but there's still a long road to travel.

Look, I hope that, if nothing else, we can all agree that we want the world to be the best possible place it can be for all peoples, yeah? As the French say, Liberté, Equalité, Fraternité. Moving towards a more egalitarian society requires correcting the existing imbalance. Increasing diversity and representation in picture books about people punching one another and shooting lighting out of the nipples is not going to fix society's woes, but it might contribute to a culture where fixing society's woes is a possibility.

You're right. It'd be much worse just changing her skin color to white lol. It would be a public relations disaster with every comic book reader.

[t hedge coke]

You're right. It'd be much worse just changing her skin color to white lol.

I'm sorry, but can you show me a comic where that happened to Wally? Not an adaptation, not an alternate reality, but the story where they kill him off and replace him with Black Wally, or where they change him through a machine or something and made him black.

Why would it be different if the one black woman in any x-movie was suddenly a white woman? Maybe because she's the only black woman in any of those movies and there are loads of white people already.

But, even so, casting in a movie or tv show is different than actually changing the character in comics or halfway through a tv series' run. That hasn't happened to Wally. I don't care how much of a purist someone is, it hasn't happened.

[whiterabbit]

I'm sorry, but can you show me a comic where that happened to Wally? Not an adaptation, not an alternate reality, but the story where they kill him off and replace him with Black Wally, or where they change him through a machine or something and made him black.

Why would it be different if the one black woman in any x-movie was suddenly a white woman? Maybe because she's the only black woman in any of those movies and there are loads of white people already.

But, even so, casting in a movie or tv show is different than actually changing the character in comics or halfway through a
tv series' run. That hasn't happened to Wally. I don't care how much of a purist someone is, it hasn't happened.

New 52 killed the original Wally West for two years till convergence brought him back, at least till the event is over. Erasing entire continuities is technically killing a character off and reviving them as something else. The first Crisis is a good example of that. If you're presented with someone with the same name, but their fundamental core is different, then the person you knew is gone.

Wally West doesn't graffiti walls in the hood and get in trouble with the law pre-52. Erasing continuities can practically be worse than death because it's an acknowledgement that you just don't exist. Everything you went through in life never happened.

And while people can say he's still alive and exists on another universe, it's equivalent of putting main universe Spider-Man in another universe and replacing him with someone else. His story, accomplishments, and life.. is just a side universe that's either unimportant or not going to be further built.

[PiercedMonk]

Wally West doesn't graffiti walls in the hood and get in trouble with the law pre-52.

DC choosing to make Wally a "troubled youth," as well as black is...messed up. It makes it seem as though the creative minds at DC are still stumbling around this whole diversity thing. "We're going to make Wally West mixed race! What something black kids do? Graffiti!" Of course, this is the same company that wanted to take a wait-and-see approach to the new creative direction on BATGIRL even after the internet exploded with excitement over the costume designs -- they were originally only going to let the creative team do six issues -- have pretty much given up on Static Shock, Jamie Reyes, and Cassandra Cain, and decided that their new Muslim Green Lantern should wear a balaclava and carry a gun. They keep trying -- which they should! -- they're just not very good at it.

And I totally get fans being upset that the character they liked being reintroduced as a petty criminal when that wasn't an aspect of his character before. I have a similar objection to New 52 Billy Batson being a little jackass.

Not sure what wearing a hoodie has to do with anything. Lots of people wear hoodies. They're comfortable.

[William300]

Does anyone else think he should stop using the wings? Somehow the wings don't seem to mesh well with the shield combat.

[t hedge coke]

New 52 killed the original Wally West for two years till convergence brought him back, at least till the event is over. Erasing entire continuities is technically killing a character off and reviving them as something else. The first Crisis is a good example of that. If you're presented with someone with the same name, but their fundamental core is different, then the person you knew is gone.

Wally West doesn't graffiti walls in the hood and get in trouble with the law pre-52. Erasing continuities can practically be worse than death because it's an acknowledgement that you just don't exist. Everything you went through in life never happened.

And while people can say he's still alive and exists on another universe, it's equivalent of putting main universe Spider-Man in another universe and replacing him with someone else. His story, accomplishments, and life.. is just a side universe that's either unimportant or not going to be further built.

He does still exist. "Original Wally" was killed by the Crisis on Infinite Earths, if anything.

The post-Crisis Wally still exists, too. I know, because there's this thing, Convergence, and he's there.

In an alternate reality, things are different.

And, we just had Spider-Verse, we just saw a zillion alternate Spideys. We had an entire cartoon series about a Spider-Man going to an alternate reality and being their new Spidey.