Is anyone else sick of Hero vs. Hero stories?

[Myetche]

Very VERY tired of the constant hero fighting hero stories. Where are the Brotherhood stories, the Masters of Evil...where did all the bad guys go? They are out doing whatever they want because they know the heroes are too busy fighting each other to notice them.

And most of the villains seen these days are now more morally-ambiguous than anything, to the point where you can't even call them outright villains. The few real villains left are the jokes like Trapster who only exist to rob banks and get punched for it, oftentimes as the McGuffin to trigger more hero-vs.-hero infighting.

[t hedge coke]

And most of the villains seen these days are now more morally-ambiguous than anything, to the point where you can't even call them outright villains.

Who? I'm not saying you're not right, just... that doesn't seem right.

[gurkle]

Who? I'm not saying you're not right, just... that doesn't seem right.

I think that's true of Marvel in general, because most of its villains wind up either becoming good guys or morally ambiguous bad guys. Magneto hasn't really done anything evil in years, Doom is always getting writers who want to show he's not so bad, even mass murderer Kang the Conqueror has good alternate versions of himself running around.

Marvel is not a company known for having great unambigously evil villains. DC is better at that. Joker, Luthor, Darkseid and other DC villains are usually really good at being evil, they have fun being evil. Marvel villains tend to be more comical or more humanized, like how Magneto went from being a raving loon who was more funny than scary (the Silver Age) to a noble misunderstood extremist (the '80s). Which is another reason Marvel characters wind up fighting each other more than they fight the bad guys. DC just has more villains who are really exciting to fight.

[MYCMTSC]

I don't want it to be overdone or contrived, but no, I think its a very true and strong concept.

Not everything is black and white, hero and villain. It makes these characters and their conflicts more human.

[t hedge coke]

I think that's true of Marvel in general, because most of its villains wind up either becoming good guys or morally ambiguous bad guys. Magneto hasn't really done anything evil in years, Doom is always getting writers who want to show he's not so bad, even mass murderer Kang the Conqueror has good alternate versions of himself running around.

Magneto's been rotten fairly recently, but he's never backed down from being an ethnic supremacist and he's never really done anything remotely heroic. His 80s turn to "good" saw him increasingly doing rotten things and climaxed with Claremont having him sending out a cult of genocidal nuts, kidnapping Moira and torturing her, brainwashing the X-Men, etc.

Doom was flat out evil just fairly recently in - Robinson's? - FF. It was quite clear that Val misjudged him, as too many do. And alternate versions are just that, alternate versions. The Kangs we usually deal with are unrepentantly bad guys. Mystique may be fun at parties, but she was just holding hostages drugged and tied to a bed so they could make drugs out of their bodily fluids. That was, what, a year ago? Spider-Man just had a huge thing against an interdimensional vampire villain. Spider-Woman is currently dealing with a conspiracy against supervillains, but the supervillains are still all pretty villainous regardless of being victimized by another criminal. Wolverines has gone out of its way to point out that these characters, aside from X-23, had tried to kill Logan repeatedly and were not then, nor now, good people.

Emotionally complex, or having friends, knowing what wine to drink while monologuing, doesn't make one less villainous. These are still bad people. Killers, thieves, wold-conquerors and monsters.

The only one I think you can really make a case for is Namor, who can be anything.

[Habis]

I think that's true of Marvel in general, because most of its villains wind up either becoming good guys or morally ambiguous bad guys. Magneto hasn't really done anything evil in years, Doom is always getting writers who want to show he's not so bad, even mass murderer Kang the Conqueror has good alternate versions of himself running around.

Even MODOK is working with the good guys now...

[xpyred]

Some have mentioned that it only happens for big events but that's not entirely true.

When Civil War happened, we had that long trail of stories where the Mighty Avengers were policing and fighting with other heroes. There was half a year of that before we got World War Hulk which had Hulk as "the hero." After that we had another 6 months of Mighty Avengers fighting the heroes again until Secret Invasion. Now it was the (evil) heroes versus the real heroes. Seige came and it went away for a while but then we had The X-Men Schism and suddenly Avengers vs X-men. Then the Illuminati crap again. its old. its tired. Its been this way for close to 10 years now.

[Juggernaut Punch]

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Some hero vs hero conflicts come about relatively organically, and are consequently entertaining. Some, like Schism, are contrived and consequently garbage.

[Darthfury78]

Very VERY tired of the constant hero fighting hero stories. Where are the Brotherhood stories, the Masters of Evil...where did all the bad guys go? They are out doing whatever they want because they know the heroes are too busy fighting each other to notice them.

What I have yet to see is The X-Men vs Squadron Sinister, as well as Tigra vs The Spot....

[Vegeta]

When the story is told well I don't mind, but they could stand to take a break from it for the time being. The current trend is to make the heroes all jerkwads and the fights simple pissing matches that usually end up causing more problems for the populace. When the heroes cause 90% of the planet's problem either directly or indirectly, it is time to hang up the tights.

[gurkle]

One thing I'm now remembering is how much of Kurt Busiek's Avengers run was Avengers fighting each other, or other heroes:

Issues 1-3: Morgan Le Fey brainwashes most of the Avengers, and the ones who break free have to fight the mind-controlled Avengers.
Issues 5-6: Avengers fight the mind-controlled Squadron Supreme (with lots of lampshading about the fact that this happens every time they meet the Squadron).
Issue 8: Silverclaw has to pretend to be a bad guy and fight the Avengers.
Issues 10-11: The Grim Reaper raises a bunch of Avengers from the dead and brainwashes them into fighting the living Avengers.
Issue 12: The Avengers fight the Thunderbolts over a misunderstanding.

You get the idea. The Ultron story was almost the first time they fought a truly threatening villain in that run. And yes, there were complaints about that at the time, but I'm just saying "heroes fighting heroes" happened a lot then, just as it happens a lot now.

[Habis]

One thing I'm now remembering is how much of Kurt Busiek's Avengers run was Avengers fighting each other, or other heroes:

Issues 1-3: Morgan Le Fey brainwashes most of the Avengers, and the ones who break free have to fight the mind-controlled Avengers.
Issues 5-6: Avengers fight the mind-controlled Squadron Supreme (with lots of lampshading about the fact that this happens every time they meet the Squadron).
Issue 8: Silverclaw has to pretend to be a bad guy and fight the Avengers.
Issues 10-11: The Grim Reaper raises a bunch of Avengers from the dead and brainwashes them into fighting the living Avengers.
Issue 12: The Avengers fight the Thunderbolts over a misunderstanding.

You get the idea. The Ultron story was almost the first time they fought a truly threatening villain in that run. And yes, there were complaints about that at the time, but I'm just saying "heroes fighting heroes" happened a lot then, just as it happens a lot now.

That was mind control or mistakes. Civil War, AvX and Times Runs Out are at another level.

[Huntsman Spider]

That was mind control or mistakes. Civil War, AvX and Times Runs Out are at another level.

Because they're all heroes, of their own untainted free will, getting into fights with each other over bulls*** that could've been solved a lot easier if they'd worked together from the beginning, and it usually starts with someone on one side or the other deciding, "F*** diplomacy, let's start cracking the skulls of anyone who doesn't agree with me!" Bad mode of thought, to say nothing of bad mode of operation, when you're a superhero tasked (or who's tasked yourself) with protecting the lives of others, as getting into pissing contests with other superheroes kind of takes the focus off "protecting the lives of others."

[Izodius]

Yes. It's an interesting twist, when it's not SO common. At this point it's so common in MU616 that it really begs the question who is a hero anymore.

[Izodius]

Magneto's been rotten fairly recently, but he's never backed down from being an ethnic supremacist and he's never really done anything remotely heroic.

I've always liked Magneto, but when you start to think of him as comparable to a White Supremacist (etc) - it's a bit disenchanting, and makes his character feel immensely flat. Does he really not have depth? Man.