Gotham without Batman - worth watching?

[ComA]

I would say yes but I don't know. The thing about Gotham is that there are just enough good elements that you can easily imagine it becoming a very good show if certain adjustments are made, and there are just enough bad elements that you also get the sense that it will never actually make that leap. The show biggest problem is how long could it survive without Batman?

[charliehustle415]

It's not the fact that Batman is not in the show, it's the fact that the show has become so cheesy. Gotham Central was a great series without Batman and it was stellar, but it kept it serious, gritty, and it was a crime procedural comic. I think a lot of us thought that was the show was going to be, i.e. looking at the early days of Gordan's career dealing with the mob and corrupt cops. Instead we got origin stories for villains so early and a Bruce so young that all those villains would be Bruce's senior by like 20 years.

I give the show one more season before it gets cancelled, because next season it is competing with Legend's of Tomorrow which will be on during the same timeslot as Gotham.

[zwixxx]

Two DC shows on at the same time, who thought THAT was a good idea ?!

[PyroSikTh]

It's not the fact that Batman is not in the show, it's the fact that the show has become so cheesy. Gotham Central was a great series without Batman and it was stellar, but it kept it serious, gritty, and it was a crime procedural comic. I think a lot of us thought that was the show was going to be, i.e. looking at the early days of Gordan's career dealing with the mob and corrupt cops. Instead we got origin stories for villains so early and a Bruce so young that all those villains would be Bruce's senior by like 20 years.

I give the show one more season before it gets cancelled, because next season it is competing with Legend's of Tomorrow which will be on during the same timeslot as Gotham.

This.

The problem with Gotham was never that there was no Batman, because Gotham Central did that concept and it was amazing. The problem with Gotham was the bad plotting, cheesy dialogue, and introducing villains waaaaay too early. And don't even get me started on Fish Mooney...

[Kensei]

I am here to defend "Gotham." I contend that it is NOT Gotham without Batman. He is there, but just in his infancy. And as for all the talk about how all the villains are being introduced way too early, I think if you really look at the numbers involved it actually makes sense well enough. And I'm basing some of this on the age of the actors, though some of them are playing slightly different ages in their characters but not extremely so.

Bruce Wayne is around 11 or 12 years old (the actor is 14). Let's say he becomes Batman in 10 years at age 21.

Jim Gordon is 36. He will likely be around 50 when he becomes commissioner, a few years into the era of Batman.

Penguin's actor is also 36, though the character might be a few years younger- let's say 30. I think it's always been clear that the Penguin was older than Batman, in this case by about 19 or 20 years.

The Riddler's actor is 28 which is about the same as his character. A decade of his insanity continuing to form puts him at just under 40 when Bruce becomes Batman.

Selina/Catwoman- the actress is 15, playing probably 13. It's perfect. Her and Bruce have already put in place the relationship that Catwoman and Batman are going to have. She's more of a antihero than a criminal, he will always let her go no matter what she does, and they will probably be on again-off again lovers.

The Joker- If "Jerome" is really him (which I think is pretty likely), he's a 21-year-old actor playing a teenager. I have no problem with the Joker being five years older than Batman. The same is true for the Scarecrow- that actor is only 16.

Harvey Dent/Two Face- The actor is 35 but he passes for younger, let's say 30. A 19 year age difference between him and Batman? I don't think that's too much of a stretch.

Alfred is 50. That makes him 60 when Batman begins and I don't think anyone should have much of a problem with that.

The Graysons were introduced as a young couple just starting to date. Let's say they have their son Dick in three years. That means Robin is born when Bruce is about 14. If he's 10 when he becomes Robin, that makes Batman 24. Acceptable, I think.

And Barbara is a total hot mess on the show, but if she is going to be the mother of Batgirl (which the show may or may not do) then she needs to conceive and give birth to Barbara Jr. most any time now in order for her to become Batgirl in her teens.

Changes have been made with the crime bosses in that Maroni is dead, Falcone is retiring, and who knows what's going to happen with Fish but it's pretty clear Batman will probably not be interacting with any of them. Apart from that, all the math works and if the show goes on as long as "Smallville" (which I know is highly unlikely) then I think it has great potential.

[Kensei]

Forgot Poison Ivy. And how could I, she's one of my favorite characters! She's about the same age as Bruce, maybe a year or two younger, and she's absolutely fascinating and disturbing as a character. There are definitely great things coming from her.

[PyroSikTh]

They're not introduced too early in respect to their age. They're introduced too early in respect to the show's age. We got 5 young villains in the pilot alone. One of the luring concepts of Batman is whether he created his own villains or not, and Gotham has no interest in even acknowledging that by just shoving them all in there straight away, as kids or not.

[charliehustle415]

They're not introduced too early in respect to their age. They're introduced too early in respect to the show's age. We got 5 young villains in the pilot alone. One of the luring concepts of Batman is whether he created his own villains or not, and Gotham has no interest in even acknowledging that by just shoving them all in there straight away, as kids or not.

I completely forgot about that, now I dislike the show even more!

I mean I totally gave this show a chance, I watched every episode; but I cannot go back to it.

[berserkerclaw]

I am here to defend "Gotham." I contend that it is NOT Gotham without Batman. He is there, but just in his infancy. And as for all the talk about how all the villains are being introduced way too early, I think if you really look at the numbers involved it actually makes sense well enough. And I'm basing some of this on the age of the actors, though some of them are playing slightly different ages in their characters but not extremely so.

Bruce Wayne is around 11 or 12 years old (the actor is 14). Let's say he becomes Batman in 10 years at age 21.

Jim Gordon is 36. He will likely be around 50 when he becomes commissioner, a few years into the era of Batman.

Penguin's actor is also 36, though the character might be a few years younger- let's say 30. I think it's always been clear that the Penguin was older than Batman, in this case by about 19 or 20 years.

The Riddler's actor is 28 which is about the same as his character. A decade of his insanity continuing to form puts him at just under 40 when Bruce becomes Batman.

Selina/Catwoman- the actress is 15, playing probably 13. It's perfect. Her and Bruce have already put in place the relationship that Catwoman and Batman are going to have. She's more of a antihero than a criminal, he will always let her go no matter what she does, and they will probably be on again-off again lovers.

The Joker- If "Jerome" is really him (which I think is pretty likely), he's a 21-year-old actor playing a teenager. I have no problem with the Joker being five years older than Batman. The same is true for the Scarecrow- that actor is only 16.

Harvey Dent/Two Face- The actor is 35 but he passes for younger, let's say 30. A 19 year age difference between him and Batman? I don't think that's too much of a stretch.

Alfred is 50. That makes him 60 when Batman begins and I don't think anyone should have much of a problem with that.

The Graysons were introduced as a young couple just starting to date. Let's say they have their son Dick in three years. That means Robin is born when Bruce is about 14. If he's 10 when he becomes Robin, that makes Batman 24. Acceptable, I think.

And Barbara is a total hot mess on the show, but if she is going to be the mother of Batgirl (which the show may or may not do) then she needs to conceive and give birth to Barbara Jr. most any time now in order for her to become Batgirl in her teens.

Changes have been made with the crime bosses in that Maroni is dead, Falcone is retiring, and who knows what's going to happen with Fish but it's pretty clear Batman will probably not be interacting with any of them. Apart from that, all the math works and if the show goes on as long as "Smallville" (which I know is highly unlikely) then I think it has great potential.

I agree. Shows good. The age aren't horrible. After all year one had Bruce become batman at 25. The shows a different continuity it shouldn't be held to exact comic standerds. Hell Gordons past is different and one one mentioned that lol. He's dating leslie. His future wife is messed up. Barbara is his wife and mother of Batgirl after all and she is a bit physio and killed her parents lol. It should be judged on its merits not how it compares to the comics.

I like the show. Best comic TV show nope that's a toss between flash and arrow. But Gotham is decent. I hope second season is way, better

[The Whovian]

I am here to defend "Gotham."

As am I Kensei. Is it a great show? No. Is it awful? No. I actually think it's quite entertaining. Sure there's some things that they could do to improve the show, but I think it's going to be better in season 2.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

As am I Kensei. Is it a great show? No. Is it awful? No. I actually think it's quite entertaining. Sure there's some things that they could do to improve the show, but I think it's going to be better in season 2.

I too will defend Gotham!

I don't mind the age issues, this isn't Prime Earth, after all. It's its own world, the ages can be different than what we're used to.

The character logic and dialog can be pretty stupid and over the top. However, the politicking, suspense, drama, general plot, etc are all really intriguing imo. I definitely would recommend it to any crime drama or Batman fan who doesn't have a something up their youknowwhat.

edit:
Also, Donal Logue (as Harvey Bullock) makes the show worth watching just by himself.

[Jared]

If the writers are smart, and I'm not convinced they are yet, each season they'll introduce a different "maybe THIS GUY is gonna become the Joker" candidate. But other than that, they need to lay off the super villains for a while, at least the adult ones. Ra's Al Ghul or Dr. Hurt might be an exception, assuming they don't overplay them.

Give Bruce a friend. It should have been Tommy Elliot, rather than just making him an one-ep bully. Hell, if we're to believe Bruce was a happy, well adjusted kid before his parents' death, he should already have friends. While I could believe that he's been ignoring them since it happened, I can't believe that if it doesn't at least get a mention from Alfred.

Also, whoever came up with the balloon man idea and let it go to hair should be flogged in lot at Fox studios, as a warning to all.

That said, I don't hate the show, and it certainly still has potential. Hell, Agents of SHIELD vastly improved from what it was for most of its first season.

[Nite-Wing]

Lets be real the only reason were getting all these villains introduced so early is because this show can't use Batman at all. They need something to sell this show with besides the GCPD stuff and the gotham rogues are all it has left if you are stuck with lil bruce wayne.

[Immortal Weapon]

They're not introduced too early in respect to their age. They're introduced too early in respect to the show's age. We got 5 young villains in the pilot alone. One of the luring concepts of Batman is whether he created his own villains or not, and Gotham has no interest in even acknowledging that by just shoving them all in there straight away, as kids or not.

The show is taking a different angle with the villains. Instead of Batman being responsible for their creation the death of Waynes is shown to have a major impact on everybody not just Bruce.

[Aura Blaize]

I'll also defend Gotham. It's not trying to be the comics and honestly, that's refreshing. Keeps people guessing and it's interesting to see the origins for some villians besides "Batman caused it somehow." It's also interesting to see Bruce grow up.

And honestly, wasn't Smallville the same? it had it's own take on the Superman mythos and all.