I think that, MAYBE, the JGS should've associated with SHIELD, after AvX (READ FIRST)

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

My rant is to tell you that it's suicidal.

Mutantkind has been punked numerous times across time and space. It's happened before, it can happen again. Costly, yes, but hardly suicidal. Not quite sure why you're insisting on that tangent, though. The original point was that an X-Men/SHIELD full-time alliance would only piss off mutantkind in the long run. They'll bitterly look back at the overnight partnership and think SHIELD was prepping for war by stealing away mutantkind's high-profile players.

Also, there's no "success", or success, as the JGS currently do absolutely nothing to help the mutant cause.

Oh, I know. Still, Maria Hill isn't obsessing over them. By current canonical standards, that's an epic win.

[Nipower888]

But I'm not even advocating condemning anyone. I'm talking about two different philosophies regarding how mutants can best better themselves: isolation, or harmony?

Both sides have pros, and cons, and that's the point.

No they don't. Shield gets a huge backing and jgs can say we love humans so much we'd sell our souls to please you. It's completely out of character to the point of peremant character defamation. A good story shouldnt ruin characters to prop up ones.

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

I'm saying they shouldnt get any credit and praise for being decent humans and we shouldnt treat them like saviors.

Who said they should be getting praise for being good people? I'm saying that it is a FACT that the civil rights movements fail if no American white people, or govt officials, throw in support. Period. You can't dispute that.

Also, if they are getting praised, it's not for being decent people, it's for rising against their own. Plenty of white people got treated just like minorities back then for supporting them. It's not "thanks for being good people", it's "wow, you're actually putting you, and your family, potentially at risk by helping us?".

Like now, when a black person marries a white person, you'll see black people giving the the black half of that marriage as if they've done something wrong, when they haven't. That's hypocrisy, when we were getting those same looks by white people in decades past (and still do at times). You said "Condemn humans not mutants for not refusing to bow down." You do know that an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind, right?

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

Mutantkind has been punked numerous times across time and space. It's happened before, it can happen again. Costly, yes, but hardly suicidal. Not quite sure why you're insisting on that tangent, though. The original point was that an X-Men/SHIELD full-time alliance would only piss off mutantkind in the long run. They'll bitterly look back at the overnight partnership and think SHIELD was prepping for war by stealing away mutantkind's high-profile players.



Oh, I know. Still, Maria Hill isn't obsessing over them. By current canonical standards, that's an epic win.

1) Sure...and that's a position the Revolution/NXS can take.

2) Lol. I guess in the meta sense, you do have a point. Still tho, isolation only makes it worse if they want to make Xavier's goal a reality.

No they don't. Shield gets a huge backing and jgs can say we love humans so much we'd sell our souls to please you. It's completely out of character to the point of peremant character defamation. A good story shouldnt ruin characters to prop up ones.

JGS also gets a huge backing; in fact most of the backing, since it's mainly mutants benefiting from this.

If it's so out of character then the X-Men should all just break all ties with humans completely. That includes all Avengers.

A good story doesn't have to ruin them either. If given a chance to truly show humanity that they can be better, and are confronted with their own hypocrisy, I can see most of them doing what best for the mutant children, and the future of mutantkind. I've already said that there's cons to this, but that doesn't mean that these characters can try it out first.

[Kisinith]

mutant cooperation with regular humans is essential to a long term successful integration. This is why people like Moira were so important, and something thats been missing from the X-books for a while. Relatable, regularly appearing and non-awful regular humans. The problem is that the current government forces (including SHIELD) can't fill that role, they are far too inextricably linked with the antagonists.

Coincidentally you actually saw this type of tentative cooperation, to some extent, in Gillian's UXM with Cyclops and the San Fran Mayor.

[Nipower888]

Who said they should be getting praise for being good people? I'm saying that it is a FACT that the civil rights movements fail if no American white people, or govt officials, throw in support. Period. You can't dispute that.

Also, if they are getting praised, it's not for being decent people, it's for rising against their own. Plenty of white people got treated just like minorities back then for supporting them. It's not "thanks for being good people", it's "wow, you're actually putting you, and your family, potentially at risk by helping us?".

Like now, when a black person marries a white person, you'll see black people giving the the black half of that marriage as if they've done something wrong, when they haven't. That's hypocrisy, when we were getting those same looks by white people in decades past (and still do at times). You said "Condemn humans not mutants for not refusing to bow down." You do know that an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind, right?

Yeah but screw you for cutting out my eye. You say you can't fight fire with fire but have yet to condemn the people that started the fires in the first place. It isn't a cycle. It's a group of people that have been abused fighting back. I disagree with you and think you are wrong but I'm not having a conversation on race issues in an x-men thread. So let's agree to disagree.

[Nipower888]

1) Sure...and that's a position the Revolution/NXS can take.

2) Lol. I guess in the meta sense, you do have a point. Still tho, isolation only makes it worse if they want to make Xavier's goal a reality.



JGS also gets a huge backing; in fact most of the backing, since it's mainly mutants benefiting from this.

If it's so out of character then the X-Men should all just break all ties with humans completely. That includes all Avengers.

A good story doesn't have to ruin them either. If given a chance to truly show humanity that they can be better, and are confronted with their own hypocrisy, I can see most of them doing what best for the mutant children, and the future of mutantkind. I've already said that there's cons to this, but that doesn't mean that these characters can try it out first.

But they have done nothing to humans but exist. They do dont need shield as they are powerful and they have money. What's best for mutants children is to be trained especially if their powers are dangerous. They don't need shield for that.

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

mutant cooperation with regular humans is essential to a long term successful integration. This is why people like Moira were so important, and something thats been missing from the X-books for a while. Relatable, regularly appearing and non-awful regular humans. The problem is that the current government forces (including SHIELD) can't fill that role, they are far too inextricably linked with the antagonists.

Coincidentally you actually saw this type of tentative cooperation, to some extent, in Gillian's UXM with Cyclops and the San Fran Mayor.

I've already addressed this, with comparisons to the real life civil rights movements. However, you do get the point I'm trying to make, and I too have admitted that SHIELD is likely NOT the agency to be handling this....but then where would the grey area go? See what I mean? I want there's to be pros and cons, on both sides. The past does show SHIELD in a bad light, which helps the NXS cause, but they're also capable of great good, which is why I'd have the JGS/Unity cause have fair success, as that's realistic. A new agency, doesn't have the clout to pull this off, like SHIELD (despite the cons they come with).

Yeah but screw you for cutting out my eye. You say you can't fight fire with fire but have yet to condemn the people that started the fires in the first place. It isn't a cycle. It's a group of people that have been abused fighting back. I disagree with you and think you are wrong but I'm not having a conversation on race issues in an x-men thread. So let's agree to disagree.

So are you saying black people should rage the streets right now, lynching white people in retribution? You talk like condemning them with make things better, when it can only make things worse. Sure it sates the (selfish) desire for retribution, but what do we get in the long run? Lots of people dead, because people can't put their feelings aside. And yes, it is a cycle.

In life, you have to make compromises, and sacrifices, to accomplish things.

You don't want to have a conversation involving race in an X-Men thread that is about how the X-Men can tackle their own race issues? Uh...

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

But they have done nothing to humans but exist. They do dont need shield as they are powerful and they have money. What's best for mutants children is to be trained especially if their powers are dangerous. They don't need shield for that.

Where do you see me saying that they need SHIELD to help train these mutants? You clearly missed the part where I made a distinction between the JGS graduates, and the AA graduates.

I've only been talking about integration, and harmony. Also, you say "they are powerful, and have money". Thanks for reminding me about something they've had for decades now, and reminding me even more how incompetent they've been in accomplishing their goal.

Also, you don't need to tell me "But they have done nothing to humans but exist." I know that; did I not reference the civil rights movements? Still, does that justify Magneto's mass slaughters? Nope, just like his actions don't justify what happened to Genosha.

[Nipower888]

I've already addressed this, with comparisons to the real life civil rights movements. However, you do get the point I'm trying to make, and I too have admitted that SHIELD is likely NOT the agency to be handling this....but then where would the grey area go? See what I mean? I want there's to be pros and cons, on both sides. The past does show SHIELD in a bad light, which helps the NXS cause, but they're also capable of great good, which is why I'd have the JGS/Unity cause have fair success, as that's realistic. A new agency, doesn't have the clout to pull this off, like SHIELD (despite the cons they come with).



So are you saying black people should rage the streets right now, lynching white people in retribution? You talk like condemning them with make things better, when it can only making things worse. Sure it sates the (selfish) desire for retribution, but what do we get in the long run? Lots of people dead, because people can't put their feelings aside. And yes, it is a cycle.

In life, you have to make compromises, and sacrifices, to accomplish things.

While you don't want to have a conversation involving race in an X-Men thread that is about how the X-Men can tackle their own race issues? Uh...

No I'm saying don't treat everything like its a cycle. There is a problem and that problem is white supremacy. I'm sick of these an eye for an eye things because they make it seem like everybody is on equal footing. Without riots and protests black people would be nowhere. No opressor says you know what it's wrong that we oppressed you. You have to take your freedom. Did white people help yes but it was black people that took it. Making compromises only gets you so far.

[Nipower888]

Where do you see me saying that they need SHIELD to help train these mutants? You clearly missed the part where I made a distinction between the JGS graduates, and the AA graduates.

I've only been talking about integration, and harmony. Also, you say "they are powerful, and have money". Thanks for reminding me about something they've had for decades now, and reminding me even more how incompetent they've been in accomplishing their goal.

Also, you don't need to tell me "But they have done nothing to humans but exist." I know that; did I not reference the civil rights movements? Still, does that justify Magneto's mass slaughters? Nope, just like his actions don't justify what happened to Genosha.

they still don't need shield and its out of character to join them. I can understand befriending the president of the U.S. helping humans but not aligning with shield. They've done nothing because they've been out of character to prop up the NXS

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

No I'm saying don't treat everything like its a cycle. There is a problem and that problem is white supremacy. I'm sick of these an eye for an eye things because they make it seem like everybody is on equal footing. Without riots and protests black people would be nowhere. No opressor says you know what it's wrong that we oppressed you. You have to take your freedom. Did white people help yes but it was black people that took it. Making compromises only gets you so far.

The eye for an eye analogy is meant that violence begets more violence, and the violence only permeates because people put their selfish feelings first. White supremacy is a problem? Sure, but that's something we gotta deal with until minorities eventually out number them in the US. Riots don't help ANYONE, only peaceful protests do. Yes, you gotta take your freedom, but violence isn't always necessary.

Black people took their freedom? Yes they did. Did white people help them in that regard? Yes they did. Are two groups putting aside their differences, and preferences, for a greater good a compromise? Yes it is.

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

they still don't need shield and its out of character to join them. I can understand befriending the president of the U.S. helping humans but not aligning with shield. They've done nothing because they've been out of character to prop up the NXS

Yeah, so now they can be written to make up for their mistakes.

It's not out of character because things like this happen all the time, in real life.

Also, befriending the president (who is the face of the govt) means that you have to cooperate with SHIELD, the organization he/she has control over.

I can't believe I'm on a X-Men forum explaining that change (either of philosophy, position or those in control) is needed of integration, and harmony. It's happened in real life enough times.

[Nipower888]

The eye for an eye analogy is meant that violence begets more violence, and the violence only permeates because people put their selfish feelings first. White supremacy is a problem? Sure, but that's something we gotta deal with until minorities eventually out number them in the US. Riots don't help ANYONE, only peaceful protests do. Yes, you gotta take your freedom, but violence isn't always necessary.

Black people took their freedom? Yes they did. Did white people help them in that regard? Yes they did. Are two groups putting aside their differences, and preferences, for a greater good a compromise? Yes it is.

then eye for an eye isn't related to black/white issues because there's no eye for an eye. Black people needed to fight back. We shouldnt accept non being treated like equals because they outnumber us. That respectable politics BS. No one set aside differences. Black people fought back and decent white people helped. Nothing was compromised.

[HeWhoSlapsAll]

Also, please don't mention white supremacy being a problem, as if any other ethnic group wouldn't have a bias towards its own. It's merely human nature; doesn't make it right tho.