Amazon stagnation: My issue with how DC Comics has been treating the society Wonder Woman came from.

[Awonder]

As mentioned before, pre-Crisis Amazons watched the world through a magic mirror.

However, let's look at current Amazons:

- At least three times a century the raid ships for sex. This gives them access to 'snapshots' of technology through the ages for them to tinker with, learn to understand, and make their own improvements/modifications to. Electricity, engines, phones, radios, guns, computers - these are the common things they would have come across in the last century alone.

- Hippolyta made reference to a young Diana of going to the outside world to 'make a weekend of it.' Apparently the Amazons are quite capable of coming and going as they please, or at least Hippolyta is. There is no reason, especially in light of discoveries from the sex raids, that Amazons shouldn't scout/raid for new technology.

- The Amazons still guard Doom's Doorway and believe that men are the enemy. That they know the 'musk of men' means they've encountered them before. Therefore they have every reason to keep up with any technology that can be used in warfare. Weapons, armor, antibiotics/surgical techniques, and communications come to mind.

- The Amazons trade for weapons with Hephaestus who has been shown to make modern weaponry (that Diana shuns in favor of a sword) Again, there is no logical reason why women who have to do battle with monsters from Tartarus would prefer a bow to an automatic weapon or a grenade. All we have seen of them is that they are warriors, and it's extremely logical for warriors to want to be the best at war.

- Those sex raids would also have given them insights into modern culture - photographs, art, novels, sculpture. We have seen no sign of any artistry on Themyscira, which means we have no creative Amazons or that no Amazon ever grew to appreciate art? Also nonsense given 3000 years of isolation (boredom) coupled with glimpses into a world that is full of these things, not to mention that there was art in Greece/the outside world when they went into seclusion.

- Given that they are visited by the gods and are magically immortal, DC could have gone with the enlightened magical society as pre-Flashpoint with fantastical monsters and magical weapons and other objects at their command.

It seems to me that the only reason they are barbaric and backwards is because Azzarello's story required them to be barbaric and backwards. There are, within the context of the new universe he created, plenty of reasons and opportunities for the Amazons to have advanced technologically, culturally and magically.

In a world where a man can become a top surgeon in five minutes by reading a library of medical texts, a race of super intelligent telepathic gorillas are hidden in the heart of Africa, a race of people makes magical and technological advances while isolated at the bottom of the ocean, and a man in his late 20s has mastered every martial art known to man while becoming a master of forensics, criminology, chemistry and a plethora of other skills while running a Fortune 500 company while spending nights running around the city in a bat suit? 'Makes no sense' just doesn't apply

This is brilliant.

[Desean101101]

This is brilliant.

Not really. What DC is doing is saying Isolation + Immortality is a terrible thing for inovation which is very true. The Amazons Brightest minds don't go Fight In dooms Doorway because they have other sisters more suited to that job , so what you have is a bunch of Immortal genius who none of the cross pollination of Ideas the rest of the world has and only gain new Tech every 33 years that contain things they would have no clue of how to work and how to build. If I dropped an Iphone in Amazon Island they would have no damn Idea what it was and would probably either break or use it as a flashlight because of how damn bright it is. Having access to technology doesn't mean squat if you have none of the infrastructure to manufacture it or even properly understand its components. Micro-chips would be beyond them because they don't have access to any of the equipment. Also Atlantis is Isolationist really, They don't Like going to the surface world since their fall but there are other races underwater that are intelligent Like Topo that they regularly interact with. Also they have limited life spans which means they have to leave behind a record and have time constraints to the time in which they can make discoveries which helps enlighten new minds with the same information to innovate on.

In short, Isolation + immortality is terrible for Technological Advancement.

[Awonder]

Not really. What DC is doing is saying Isolation + Immortality is a terrible thing for inovation which is very true. The Amazons Brightest minds don't go Fight In dooms Doorway because they have other sisters more suited to that job , so what you have is a bunch of Immortal genius who none of the cross pollination of Ideas the rest of the world has and only gain new Tech every 33 years that contain things they would have no clue of how to work and how to build. If I dropped an Iphone in Amazon Island they would have no damn Idea what it was and would probably either break or use it as a flashlight because of how damn bright it is. Having access to technology doesn't mean squat if you have none of the infrastructure to manufacture it or even properly understand its components. Micro-chips would be beyond them because they don't have access to any of the equipment. Also Atlantis is Isolationist really, They don't Like going to the surface world since their fall but there are other races underwater that are intelligent Like Topo that they regularly interact with. Also they have limited life spans which means they have to leave behind a record and have time constraints to the time in which they can make discoveries which helps enlighten new minds with the same information to innovate on.

In short, Isolation + immortality is terrible for Technological Advancement.

And this is false. Your argument breaks on a single word: immortality. Ever met an immortal? Has anyone at DC? No. How do your know what an immortal, much less a society of immortals, is capable of? You don't. It's fiction, where the choices are left up to the creators.

[Desean101101]

And this is false. Your argument breaks on a single word: immortality. Ever met an immortal? Has anyone at DC? No. How do your know what an immortal, much less a society of immortals, is capable of? You don't. It's fiction, where the choices are left up to the creators.

So to you Immortals would have the Zeal in which mortals pursue new things. When you have forever to fix a problem it doesn't really matter how long you take. Also If my statement is false than any and all statements you make are false also because it hinges on the same argument but with much less deductive reason.

[AmiMizuno]

The continent Atlantis was part of was pretty advanced before dead king split it into 7 different parts. Gorilla city is not in earth, it's in another dimension.

But still no one has big problem them. the amazons are in a another dimension to(In other versions they are) so why can't they have their own tech? I mean mystic tech should be the amazons tech. Gems powering their tech and magically abilities too

[Desean101101]

But still no one has big problem them. the amazons are in a another dimension to(In other versions they are) so why can't they have their own tech? I mean mystic tech should be the amazons tech. Gems powering their tech and magically abilities too

Doesn't matter. This Version isn't in another Dimension at all, its just cloaked so anybody who isn't an amazon can't find it without an Amazon guide.

[InSavnity]

Nowhere did I accusing you of being mysoginistic; stop lying.

And I understand your point just fine. You're trying to apply the real world to a world that is anything but real, and only doing so selectively. That selective "realism" has flaws for the simple reason that it's selective. It's also very dull creatively. When I want anthropology, I read anthropology (or do it myself, which is the heart of anthropology and much more fun).

Applicating realism selectively is always the right thing to do when the matter of discussion is a fictional world, since flying people and intelligent gorillas may be a thing in that, but you have to ground the way people lives, acts and reacts to external factors on something concrete, because otherwise nobody will ever be interested in a fictional world where personal interactions, rational thinking and cause-effect logic is completely topsy-turvy. Just look at Gene Roddenberry's contributions to Star Trek: The Next Generation. Only when the creator's bizarre conclusions on how humanity and behaviour would have evolved in his "futuristic utopia" were completely expunged from the show the latter became the classic for the ages many know and love.

[AmiMizuno]

Doesn't matter. This Version isn't in another Dimension at all, its just cloaked so anybody who isn't an amazon can't find it without an Amazon guide.

good point. It still would be nice for the amazons to have mystic tech

[Nipower888]

Lies? What are you talking about? I just remember from past interactions with you already brought up the fact that Themiscyra is an island populated exclusively by women, as if any time I criticise something about Amazon society I have issues with the concept of a functioning all-female civilisation. Don't deny that because those posts are still in the poll thread on Azzarello's run.

Secondly, applicating realism selectively is always the right thing to do when the matter of discussion is a fictional world, since flying people and intelligent gorillas may be a thing in that, but you have to ground the way people lives, acts and reacts to external factors on something concrete, because otherwise nobody will ever be interested in a fictional world where personal interactions, rational thinking and cause-effect logic is completely topsy-turvy. Just look at Gene Roddenberry's contributions to Star Trek: The Next Generation. Only when the creator's bizarre conclusions on how humanity and behaviour would have evolved in his "futuristic utopia" were completely expunged from the show the latter became the classic for the ages many know and love.

Maybe it's because im female but I don't see why an all female society wouldnt work. They're immortal so they wouldnt have to worry about populations dying out. They can sleep with each other for entertainment purposes. I've always found it odd that most of the women weren't lesbians. They are rational so all Theyd really need is a strong leader to rein them in. Theyd fight at first but I'm pretty sure they'd grow past that eventually. With magic and minor things technology can advance. It may not advance in the way ours has but that's the beauty of it. Imagine Steve finding the island filled with bizarre building, tools, and things he's never seen before. Theyd still have disagreements and issues. New women (and maybe a few men) can be born using magic. I'd say the same for an all male society.

[Awonder]

I don't really understand why Amazons have to be technologically advanced? Technology is not necessary for "perfect" society so what does them having advanced technology actually add?

I'm not really arguing that they have to be technologically advanced. But, on the flip side, why can't they be? Why must they be so limited? Personally, I think they can, and should, be much more than they've been allowed to be in nu52 - that's what I'm arguing for.

These Amazons do have a exterior reason, which surprises me hasn't been mentioned yet; The point of showcasing a feminist utopia where the all-woman society can be technologically advanced.

I'm not sure I understand you here, Outside. Are you saying that the "exterior reason" is to "showcase a feminist uptopia where the all-women society can be technologically advanced?"

I understand your point that technology is advanced through cultural exchange (as you pointed out re glass, etc). It's a valid point. But it isn't the only valid point in this discussion. This isn't a history book; it's not even historical fiction. It's superheroes in a world of myth, magic, and monsters. So, why must "realism" be selectively applied to the technology of the Amazons in this world? Why can't they adopt technology from others and build on what they find? The Japanese may have been slow to abandon the sword, but they did adopt the gun.

I am just saying that the depiction of the New 52 Amazons is more than likely a choice DC made, based on their own observations, probably including Amazons Attack and the Flashpoint Amazons. As much as fans hated that depiction, can't really deny that the Amazons actually did something for once.

Ah, yes, the heart of it - DC made a choice for their storytelling. On that, I think we agree. Though I wouldn't say the Amazons "doing something" is always a good idea when that "something" is often bad lately. Not all storytelling choices are created equal - hence, the differing views on how the DCU Amazons should be depicted (I don't hold the same views for all depictions of the Amazons).

But why did it require that? Mostly, I think, to show that isolation out of fear can lead to stagnation, so that Diana would take on the heroic mission of ending the isolation, opening dialogue and bringing about progress.

Once the reform has begun in earnest, the Amazons can quickly adopt, master and improve new technologies, and writers can even slip in references to old technologies, like the purple healing ray. In fact, the latter has already begun.

To me, it's not about realism, and it has nothing to do with the "realities" of the DCU outside this book. It's about the development of a theme and a source of conflict: the dangers of withdrawal and isolation, and the need for engagement and dialogue.

You seem to be writing in the margins again. Even if we go with this theme of yours, it has the depth of a table of contents in the book itself. We have to ignore not only the "'realities' of the larger DCU," but also, as Gaelforce points out so well, the fact that the Amazons are not entirely cut-off from others and their technology: Heph and the raids both provide opportunities for greater tech from which to build on. The only real reason they don't is a limitation imposed by the author.

Even if we go with this theme that isolation is so bad and limit it to just the WW book (an artificial limitation), Heph breaks it. He's arguably the smartest person in the book, very tech savvy, AND he's an isolationist. His isolated group of men are learning advanced tech. You may argue they are somewhat socially stunted, but the book gives that no real depth or emphasis.

[Awonder]

So to you Immortals would have the Zeal in which mortals pursue new things. When you have forever to fix a problem it doesn't really matter how long you take. Also If my statement is false than any and all statements you make are false also because it hinges on the same argument but with much less deductive reason.

Your statement is false, not because I don't like it, but because it isn't entirely truthful. Not entirely truthful = false.

Sure, in fiction, you can choose to depict immortals with no zeal to create and build - but my point is just that, it is a choice. It may even be a valid choice based on "deductive reasoning," but it's not the only available choice with deductive reasoning.

[Awonder]

Secondly, applicating realism selectively is always the right thing to do when the matter of discussion is a fictional world, since flying people and intelligent gorillas may be a thing in that, but you have to ground the way people lives, acts and reacts to external factors on something concrete, because otherwise nobody will ever be interested in a fictional world where personal interactions, rational thinking and cause-effect logic is completely topsy-turvy. Just look at Gene Roddenberry's contributions to Star Trek: The Next Generation. Only when the creator's bizarre conclusions on how humanity and behaviour would have evolved in his "futuristic utopia" were completely expunged from the show the latter became the classic for the ages many know and love.

Regarding paragraph 1 - I'm not the topic. If you are assuming I think you have issues with a functioning all-female society, then I invite you to add your views regarding a positive portrayal of the DCU Amazons. Preferably something more than just them being warriors. I would be interested in reading that.

Second - 'tis true that "realism" is selectively applied in fiction - that's my point. You may choose for the Amazons to not have advanced tech for the reasons you've stated - and that's valid. But, it's not the only choice. You may think a teen Peter making web-shooters in his bed room is corny, but the Amzons Spider-Man movies made hundreds of millions with a teen Peter making web-shooters in his bed room.

[Silvanus]

You seem to be writing in the margins again.

Well, let's look inside the margins:

WW_Dessa.jpg

She's not talking directly about tech, of course. But she's very clear that the Amazons have conservatively clung to their old ways, including isolation, because they long ago learned to fear confronting their "old weakness" and imperfections. I think that's impression of the Amazons Azz wanted us to get, and having them appear very conservative and old-fashioned in their ways of life, even to the point of taking no interest in new tech, seems consistent with that. Also consistent with that is her comment in issue 8, when picking out weapons, that she's old-fashioned in those choices because that's how she was raised.

And of course, since their fear drives them to remain isolated on an island that seems to meet all their basic needs, they don't have much reason to adopt modern tech. They don't need modern agriculture or modern transportation or modern communications, and that makes it easy to live up to their conservative philosophy and stick to old tech. They're too tough to need air conditioning or other creature comforts of modern life. They might need effective medicine from time to time--but they've apparently had that,in the form of the purple healing ray, as we know from Superman/Wonder Woman and now JL. Azz just didn't show us that piece of tech, probably because it didn't fit the impression of stagnation by isolation that he wanted to leave; but he also didn't rule out medical tech, so it was very easy for other to reintroduce without having to contradict anything.

The only real reason they don't is a limitation imposed by the author.

Of course! Everything is a creative choice. Having the Amazons become incredibly advanced because they shunned the other gender and isolated themselves from the whole would have been an creative choice. Having the Amazons become stagnant because they shunned the other gender and isolated themselves from the world world was also a creative choice. The latter choice resonates more with me, because in the society I live in (as I see it), isolationism and segregation and strict separation of genders seem historically to have been more problematic than integration, engagement and dialogue.

[Awonder]

Well, let's look inside the margins:

WW_Dessa.jpg

She's not talking directly about tech, of course. But she's very clear that the Amazons have conservatively clung to their old ways, including isolation, because they long ago learned to fear confronting their "old weakness" and imperfections. I think that's impression of the Amazons Azz wanted us to get, and having them appear very conservative and old-fashioned in their ways of life, even to the point of taking no interest in new tech, seems consistent with that. Also consistent witht hat is her comment in issue 8, when picking out weapons, that she's old-fashioned in those choices because that's how she was raised.



Of course! Everything is a creative choice. Having the Amazons become incredibly advanced because they shunned the other gender and isolated themselves from the whole would have been an creative choice. Having the Amazons become stagnant because they shunned the other gender and isolated themselves from the world world was also a creative choice. The latter choice resonates more with me, because in the society I live in (as I see it), isolationism and segregation and strict separation of genders seem historically to have been more problematic than integration, engagement and dialogue.

Well, at least we agree it was a choice.

But you seem to be ignoring the point that Heph - an isolationist himself, and father-figure to a group of sex-segregated isolationists - isn't portrayed in the same "problematic" light.

Eta - Heph is (arguably?) the most insightful and helpful of his peers, and the only "problem" for the Manazons is Diana's assumption they were slaves. But, her assumption is depicted as being wrong.

The main reasons your argument on isolation is "problematic" for me: 1) it's not applied equally, and 2) there's little context regarding the Amazons breaking free of the sex-based segregation that has kept women down for thousands of years (the main point, I believe, Marston was going for). Without more context, and without applying the theme across the board, I don't think your theme works very well. It's lopsided.

Eta2-

And of course, since their fear drives them to remain isolated on an island that seems to meet all their basic needs, they don't have much reason to adopt modern tech. They don't need modern agriculture or modern transportation or modern communications, and that makes it easy to live up to their conservative philosophy and stick to old tech. They're too tough to need air conditioning or other creature comforts of modern life. They might need effective medicine from time to time--but they've apparently had that,in the form of the purple healing ray, as we know from Superman/Wonder Woman and now JL. Azz just didn't show us that piece of tech, probably because it didn't fit the impression of stagnation by isolation that he wanted to leave; but he also didn't rule out medical tech, so it was very easy for other to reintroduce without having to contradict anything.

Yes, I understand the idea of "isolation = stagnation." As an idea, it has merit. I'm not arguing against the validity of the general idea, I'm saying the execution in the book is rather flawed, imo.

For instance, you say they don't have need - then why trade for weapons? For women who do not like men, including gods, on their island, why do they want to be dependent on Heph? They have interactions with others who have greater tech, others they fear enough to isolate themselves from, but they don't ever adopt any other ways of dealing with them?

Truth is, they remain stagnant only because the author forces it on them. Even if he tried to make a point, me did a poor job.

[dumbduck]

As mentioned before, pre-Crisis Amazons watched the world through a magic mirror.

However, let's look at current Amazons:

- At least three times a century the raid ships for sex. This gives them access to 'snapshots' of technology through the ages for them to tinker with, learn to understand, and make their own improvements/modifications to. Electricity, engines, phones, radios, guns, computers - these are the common things they would have come across in the last century alone.

- Hippolyta made reference to a young Diana of going to the outside world to 'make a weekend of it.' Apparently the Amazons are quite capable of coming and going as they please, or at least Hippolyta is. There is no reason, especially in light of discoveries from the sex raids, that Amazons shouldn't scout/raid for new technology.

- The Amazons still guard Doom's Doorway and believe that men are the enemy. That they know the 'musk of men' means they've encountered them before. Therefore they have every reason to keep up with any technology that can be used in warfare. Weapons, armor, antibiotics/surgical techniques, and communications come to mind.

- The Amazons trade for weapons with Hephaestus who has been shown to make modern weaponry (that Diana shuns in favor of a sword) Again, there is no logical reason why women who have to do battle with monsters from Tartarus would prefer a bow to an automatic weapon or a grenade. All we have seen of them is that they are warriors, and it's extremely logical for warriors to want to be the best at war.

- Those sex raids would also have given them insights into modern culture - photographs, art, novels, sculpture. We have seen no sign of any artistry on Themyscira, which means we have no creative Amazons or that no Amazon ever grew to appreciate art? Also nonsense given 3000 years of isolation (boredom) coupled with glimpses into a world that is full of these things, not to mention that there was art in Greece/the outside world when they went into seclusion.

- Given that they are visited by the gods and are magically immortal, DC could have gone with the enlightened magical society as pre-Flashpoint with fantastical monsters and magical weapons and other objects at their command.

It seems to me that the only reason they are barbaric and backwards is because Azzarello's story required them to be barbaric and backwards. There are, within the context of the new universe he created, plenty of reasons and opportunities for the Amazons to have advanced technologically, culturally and magically.

In a world where a man can become a top surgeon in five minutes by reading a library of medical texts, a race of super intelligent telepathic gorillas are hidden in the heart of Africa, a race of people makes magical and technological advances while isolated at the bottom of the ocean, and a man in his late 20s has mastered every martial art known to man while becoming a master of forensics, criminology, chemistry and a plethora of other skills while running a Fortune 500 company while spending nights running around the city in a bat suit? 'Makes no sense' just doesn't apply

This, all of this. I had noticed a few of these things and you made a great resume of all of it.