Multiversity and Convergence: The Point

[AlexanderLuthor]

The point of both series is...that it all exists. Every single story you've read from DC Comics since 1939 is "in continuity". It may have happened in a different timeline or it may have happened on a different world: but IT HAPPENED. It is simply the camera you are looking through. So, can Parallax save everything from COIE - yes - and can he be in Final Night - yes - they are different timelines that we have been shown. Can COIE not have happened and post-COIE still exist - yes - because we've been shown both timelines. It's all still out there. Because, to get meta-Morrison for a moment, all it takes is one writer to pick up his/her pen and bring those universes/timelines back to life...as we just saw in the Convergence tie-ins. The exciting part of that is now it's not just Morrison saying it, Convergence made it official DC editorial policy. Nothing is gone, it ALL EXISTS

[superduperman]

But how do you know this? That is just one interpretation of the ending of Convergence #8. When I read it, I came to the opposite conclusion. Unless Didio himself comes out and states this, we have no way of knowing. Keep in mind also that the Big Two haven't exactly been receptive to fans in recent years. Quesada threw out the Spider-Marriage just because he personally didn't like it. Ditto Johns and Superboy's nineties origin. And don't even get me started on Ultimates 3. The head honchos at these companies seem to be somewhat tone deaf to what fans want in many ways.

[resipsaloquitur]

It's comic books. If the writer and editorial says it exists, it exists. If they do another Crisis, then it doesn't.

But you always have your comic collections, so if you like a story, go grab it off your shelf. Or imagine a better one yourself.

[t hedge coke]

The point of both series is...that it all exists. Every single story you've read from DC Comics since 1939 is "in continuity".

That's something achieved by both (and by other stories), but I don't think it's the point of either. Or, at least, it's one of the smaller points.

The exciting part of that is now it's not just Morrison saying it, Convergence made it official DC editorial policy. Nothing is gone, it ALL EXISTS

How does Convergence make it more "official" than any other DC comic that DC published lately? Aside from that, is it really important that it be DC editorial policy, rather than something the audience and the authors recognize? That was always part of the beauty of The Kingdom, to me, that once hypertime, as a label, was out there, it's impossible for a publisher or an editor to take it away. It all exists whether an editor says so or not.

[AlexanderLuthor]

It's comic books. If the writer and editorial says it exists, it exists. If they do another Crisis, then it doesn't.

But you always have your comic collections, so if you like a story, go grab it off your shelf. Or imagine a better one yourself.

And of course that is true and was really the whole point of Multiversity. However, in a sense what is "real" and "not real" is a DC editorial decision in the sense of what is, or is not, in continuity. So while Multiversity said hey you fan this all was real, Convergence made it DC editorial policy that it's all real. You just saw the Teen Titans from 1980 in a comic book, they weren't killed, and they were sent back to their world and time. They are no longer wiped out by the New 52 or anything else - they are just on a different world or timeline in official DC lore

[AlexanderLuthor]

That's something achieved by both (and by other stories), but I don't think it's the point of either. Or, at least, it's one of the smaller points.



How does Convergence make it more "official" than any other DC comic that DC published lately? Aside from that, is it really important that it be DC editorial policy, rather than something the audience and the authors recognize? That was always part of the beauty of The Kingdom, to me, that once hypertime, as a label, was out there, it's impossible for a publisher or an editor to take it away. It all exists whether an editor says so or not.

Are we talking in reality or in a fictional world? In reality, of course all of those stories exist...and that was a big point of Multiversity. In the fictional world of the DC Universe and what we call "continuity"? Those things did not exist in the DC Universe or in continuity. Convergence made it DC editorial policy that they do exist in the the fictional world we call the DC Universe

[GlennSimpson]

And of course that is true and was really the whole point of Multiversity. However, in a sense what is "real" and "not real" is a DC editorial decision in the sense of what is, or is not, in continuity. So while Multiversity said hey you fan this all was real, Convergence made it DC editorial policy that it's all real. You just saw the Teen Titans from 1980 in a comic book, they weren't killed, and they were sent back to their world and time. They are no longer wiped out by the New 52 or anything else - they are just on a different world or timeline in official DC lore

Not wiped out, but certainly altered, considering Crisis still happened (albeit without destroying the Multiverse)? Arguably they WERE wiped out and replaced in the Crisis, and then again in Zero Hour, and again in Infinite Crisis and then again in Flashpoint, eventually "evolving" into what we have today.

And this is avoiding the debate over whether the characters themselves change or just the world they live in. In other words, the pre-Crisis Nightwing might not be the post-Crisis Nightwing - it's just that in both worlds, there is a Dick Grayson who becomes a guy called Nightwing.

One can also interpret it to say that the Crisis was the only cosmic retroactive event and those infinite Earths changed into the current 52. But BARE MINIMUM they were altered and changed into what we have today. So whatever the writer's intent, that's not what's in print. And we can't trust intent. The only proof will be to see what they actually do moving forward.

It's comic books. If the writer and editorial says it exists, it exists. If they do another Crisis, then it doesn't.

But you always have your comic collections, so if you like a story, go grab it off your shelf. Or imagine a better one yourself.

As much as I personally think people should just move on, technically this is not a response to what they are asking for. What they are asking for is additional stories set in the previous setting. Going back and re-reading the comics they already have read doesn't make that happen. And of course they want the stories to be professionally written, so imagining them themselves isn't an option either.

Accepting the change is really the only viable option.

[AlexanderLuthor]

Not wiped out, but certainly altered, considering Crisis still happened (albeit without destroying the Multiverse)? Arguably they WERE wiped out and replaced in the Crisis, and then again in Zero Hour, and again in Infinite Crisis and then again in Flashpoint, eventually "evolving" into what we have today.

And this is avoiding the debate over whether the characters themselves change or just the world they live in. In other words, the pre-Crisis Nightwing might not be the post-Crisis Nightwing - it's just that in both worlds, there is a Dick Grayson who becomes a guy called Nightwing.

One can also interpret it to say that the Crisis was the only cosmic retroactive event and those infinite Earths changed into the current 52. But BARE MINIMUM they were altered and changed into what we have today. So whatever the writer's intent, that's not what's in print. And we can't trust intent. The only proof will be to see what they actually do moving forward.

All true. And that was another point Morrison made - only we the reader know that. If it is not acknowledged "in universe" then it didn't happen in continuity. It has now been acknowledged by DC editorial and those worlds given sanction by them to be in DC continuity moving forward. Whether you call it the New 52 or post-52 or whatever, those characters saw Telos's world and interacted with every different era of DC continuity. It's all there now in the DC Universe that emerges. Booster Gold, Waverider, Rip Hunter or whoever might visit one of those worlds or timelines now, because they are acknowledged and part of the DC Universe going forward. That was not the case before