"Too Racy"? Your thoughts

[Blacksun]

That's irrelevant. You said the only people who don't like the story are shippers. That is completely wrong, there were plenty of people didn't like it for another reason that had nothing to do with romance, whether you agree with that reason or not. That's not to say there aren't many who hate it specifically because of the Batman thing, which is perfectly valid, but all the same its not the only reason people dislike the story.

it is always the same group that talks badly about DCAU WW, blackest night and rucka run, I still have to see WW fans hating on rucka.

Whoa I must have missed this tidbit.

Part of the reason I've loathed the SUPERMAN/WONDER WOMAN title is neither of them come off as people in an adult relationship. If you're going to shake up the status quo and put Supes and Wondie together, have some fun with it!

so having a adult relationship is all about sex?

[Sacred Knight]

Exactly. It comes off as a stunt because DC doesn't seem to want to move the relationship beyond what it has been the last three years. It's in this weird stasis that frankly is boring.

Eh, I think you're reaching on this one. Unless you're also of the opinion that the marriage was equally a stunt. I mean, from 1996 to 2011 the marriage never progressed, never grew, outside of the occasional bump in the road. Exactly like what's happening here. Just on a smaller scale as this has only been 3 years, and the monotonous stasis of the marriage lasted 15 years.

it is always the same group that talks badly about DCAU WW, blackest night and rucka run, I still have to see WW fans hating on rucka.

That they're the most vocal doesn't mean shippers are the only ones who don't like those stories, for other reasons. And cry me a river, we also have the same group of people complaining about SM/WW. Everyone fan of something has to to deal with a section that isn't a fan of what they like. You just deal with it and make your counter-arguments if you have one, or don't partake in community. Complaining about it is staggeringly hypocritical.

[manofsteel1979]

Eh, I think you're reaching on this one. Unless you're also of the opinion that the marriage was equally a stunt. I mean, from 1996 to 2011 the marriage never progressed, never grew, outside of the occasional bump in the road. Exactly like what's happening here.

I personally think the marriage was a missed opportunity as well. However, the difference here is that with Lois and Clark Post Crisis, there was a stretch of character and relationship progression from 1986-until 1991-92 ish. There was an actual arc that culminated in the engagement, the secret ID reveal and then of course it went into a bit of a stasis itself for several years until they broke them up in 1996-ish, then lightswitched them back together for, yes, a stunt of sorts to culminate with what the TV show.

By contrast, We never got a similar arc with SM/WW. Just some looks and flirting in the JL book, then the kiss in JL#12...and suddenly they were a couple....and really that's as far as it's gotten for the most part, and the sad thing is DC doesn't seem to bothered with advancing or exploring things beyond the mere superficial level.


Over the years of the marriage though, there were efforts to move things along, explore the idea of them as parents etc, but none of them stuck because there were people in power at DC that were actively looking to erase the marriage at some point, and having them move forward in any respect would have simply made that messier.

I do find it ironic though that one of the arguments against the marriage was stagnation. That the character was locked into a permanent stasis of sorts that writers couldn't play with. So they erase the marriage with the reboot to get the character out of that rut and explore other romantic options. Ok, fine. I actually was so frustrated with how DC was squandering the marriage that I was open to something new. So they pair him with Wonder Woman. Again, ok. However, here we are three years into it and the relationship, which as, you kinda admit, is in the same sort of stagnation that supposidly made Superman such a chore to write Pre-reboot according to some writers and creative people. I guess for them, stagnation is ok, as long as the relationship status is "going steady" and not "married".

[Sacred Knight]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but the idea of stagnation only became a problem with me in regards to the marriage sometime post-IC. When Superman was going through these creative changes, yet absolutely nothing was being done with the marriage. That's when I first saw a problem Three years into it I was still all in though, no problem. I didn't need it to change much in three years worth of stories.

[Francisco]

After the marriage ten years later or so the logical step was for Superman and Lois to become parents. Either by having a biological child or by adoption. That would've been an awesome dynamic to explore but DC chickened out. At this point Supes and WW are nowhere near stagnant. They've barely started. I'm enjoying the whole turmoil and see no problem with the relationship been questioned in story almost every issue I'd just like if it was more show than tell.

[Flash Gordon]

so having a adult relationship is all about sex?

For two healthy adults who should be in the honeymoon stage and with as much stamina as SUPERman and WONDER Woman, yes it's a major part.

Of course gods forbid anyone can show Wonder Woman enjoying herself.

[Sacred Knight]

Well, they did try it a bit with Chris, but that just unfortunately happened to be a poorly executed tale, like most Superman stories of that era.

[Blacksun]

I personally think the marriage was a missed opportunity as well. However, the difference here is that with Lois and Clark Post Crisis, there was a stretch of character and relationship progression from 1986-until 1991-92 ish. There was an actual arc that culminated in the engagement, the secret ID reveal and then of course it went into a bit of a stasis itself for several years until they broke them up in 1996-ish, then lightswitched them back together for, yes, a stunt of sorts to culminate with what the TV show.


Over the years of the marriage though, there were efforts to move things along, explore the idea of them as parents etc, but none of them stuck because there were people in power at DC that were actively looking to erase the marriage at some point, and having them move forward in any respect would have simply made that messier.

I do find it ironic though that one of the arguments against the marriage was stagnation. That the character was locked into a permanent stasis of sorts that writers couldn't play with. So they erase the marriage with the reboot to get the character out of that rut and explore other romantic options. Ok, fine. I actually was so frustrated with how DC was squandering the marriage that I was open to something new. So they pair him with Wonder Woman. Again, ok. However, here we are three years into it and the relationship, which as, you kinda admit, is in the same sort of stagnation that supposidly made Superman such a chore to write Pre-reboot according to some writers and creative people. I guess for them, stagnation is ok, as long as the relationship status is "going steady" and not "married".

The marriage wasn't a stunt to sync with the tv show, it was planned much time ahead, but it was on hold and then there was superman death. so with the tv show the chance appeared again and the creator did the story they wanted to do previously.

took some years to spider-man get the a good story with the marriage with JMS and then quesada blew it

Jim Lee gave one interview that was posted over lois and clark thread, that he was gainst the marriage, never got the hots for lois, traingle for 2 was the best superman. Meanwhile Warren Ellis always wanted to take a shot on the married superman but dc would never give the gig for him.

stagnation is alright for DC, as long as the ship is the one Jim lee approves. Lee is the quesada from DC.

For two healthy adults who should be in the honeymoon stage and with as much stamina as SUPERman and WONDER Woman, yes it's a major part.

Of course gods forbid anyone can show Wonder Woman enjoying herself.

supersex again? we can't no go there?
well if you think it is a adult relationship more power to you, but I think is far more complex than two people naked on bed.

I would have less problems if WW was allowed to have fullfilling relationships with other people too. her sexuality is basically dependent where superman is avaliable or not

[Flash Gordon]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but the idea of stagnation only became a problem with me in regards to the marriage sometime post-IC. When Superman was going through these creative changes, yet absolutely nothing was being done with the marriage. That's when I first saw a problem Three years into it I was still all in though, no problem. I didn't need it to change much in three years worth of stories.

Yeah I wasn't against the marriage at all either. It is the natural progression for Lois and Clark who have dated since roughly 1938. It's just that all the Superman line went to hell around INFINITE CRISIS. Chuck Austen was the darkest period for me, Lois acted like a completely different person under him. Sure, she and Lana can be the jealous type but Superman isn't the type of guy to think about cheating.

Then of course we had WORLD OF NEW KRYPTON, WAR OF THE SUPERMEN, and JMS's GROUNDED- which was the one that took Post-Crisis Superman out back Old Yeller style.

[Francisco]

Well, they did try it a bit with Chris, but that just unfortunately happened to be a poorly executed tale, like most Superman stories of that era.

That would've been glorious. Superman and Lois adopting a Zod. Teaching him, training him and turning him into a good man and a great hero just like Ma and Pa did with him. I can almost see it The Adventures of Superman and Son.

[Flash Gordon]

supersex again? we can't no go there?
well if you think it is a adult relationship more power to you, but I think is far more complex than two people naked on bed.

I would have less problems if WW was allowed to have fullfilling relationships with other people too. her sexuality is basically dependent where superman is avaliable or not

Because she's in a committed relationship with him?

I'm not going to argue about the sex lives of two fictional superheroes, but to think that Superman and Wonder Woman WOULDN'T have intimate moments because it's not fulfilling makes no sense to me. Both characters are wish fulfillment.

[manofsteel1979]

The marriage wasn't a stunt to sync with the tv show, it was planned much time ahead, but it was on hold and then there was superman death. so with the tv show the chance appeared again and the creator did the story they wanted to do previously.

Actually the plan was originally having them marry in either SUPERMAN #75 or ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN #500. That plan got scuttled when someone at Warner Bros decided that should Lois & Clark last on the air, that the comic book wedding would then happen the same time as the TV wedding. That derailed their original storyline, so Carlin and Co.had to find something to fill page space...so thus was born the Death of Superman. The wedding got pushed down the road again and again until the plan was that the TV show decided they weren't going to marry the characters until the end of the series, which at the time looked as though it would put the last season around 1998...Superman's 60th birthday. So they did the break up storyline and planned on postponing the marriage until the 60th anniversary. They had already planned the Electro-Supes storyarc to fill the gap, and at the culmination of all that, Superman would get his classic suit and powers back AND get married to Lois all in one gigantic mega event kicking off the 60th anniversary of Superman.

Then ABC network put the pressure on the Lois and Clark producers to get the two married at the start of Season 4 in 1996 to shore up the falling ratings, which then forced DC to once again abandon a portion of their plans, dust off the original plan for the wedding from years prior, distill it down to a huge whopper of a special issue and a four part honeymoon storyarc for the following month, and rush it all to print the week television married them off. So, in short, yes, it was in the original plans for them to marry,but it was ultimately co-oped as a stunt to please DC's corporate masters.

So yes, the wedding, as it ultimately ended up being executed, was a stunt...and this was often used as an argument from DC brass that the marriage was forced onto DC (thus a reason why, in their minds, it needed to go away), when it was technically not the case. Only the timing was forced.

Ok...sorry for the off topic "history lesson" , guys...but I wanted to explain to blacksun why I called the marriage/wedding a stunt of sorts.

[manofsteel1979]

That would've been glorious. Superman and Lois adopting a Zod. Teaching him, training him and turning him into a good man and a great hero just like Ma and Pa did with him. I can almost see it The Adventures of Superman and Son.

That was what Kurt Busiek was doing in his SUPERMAN run. It was glorious indeed.

Pity no one told him Chris was supposed to only be used in Johns and Donner's LAST SON story, and thanks to the delays in the arc, it ultimately retconed away everything Kurt did with Chris. Grrrr.

[Sacred Knight]

Two years to tell a five issue story is absolutely gaudy and unacceptable.

[manofsteel1979]

Two years to tell a five issue story is absolutely gaudy and unacceptable.

Another reason (among many) why Matt Idelson was the worst editor to ever work on Superman. Period. It was his job to either hire another artist to finish the LAST SON arc on time (as I believe it was because the artist was going through some issues at the time), communicate with Busiek not to use Chris as Johns had definitive plans for him (so Kurt didn't have his story retconned away ultimately, wasting his time) or put his foot down and tell Johns/Donner that they had to come up with a different ending as Busiek had already used Chris while they were all twiddling their thumbs.

How he kept his job almost two years into the New 52 mystifies me. He was a huge reason why Superman NEEDED a reboot in the first place.