Do You Like The Amazons As Sex-Pirates?

[numberthirty]

Reads to me like a detailed journal of a murderer talking about her murders. The fact that Azz and Ex apparently KNEW this woman and knew that she enjoyed "hacking" men? I think it's safe to say that it's accurate.

Again.... If someone wants to read in that a section of a single line is part of a "detailed" journal? Ok. There is still nothing there that points to anything like that. The next line could have been about anything.

As for "accuracy"? Again, there is nothing on the page to point to that. She could have said she killed ten thousand men on a five foot ship in the next line.

[Awonder]

I agree to a point. I think this is more an issue of what Finch has done (or more accurately NOT done) with these issues since she took over. Azzarello used the Amazons as background noise for the most part. Finch has had more opportunity to explore this angle, but has gone a different way.

More opportunity? Azzarello had 3+ years, Finch has had 5 issues (iirc). The Amazons deserved to be more than background noise. Just as I didn't like some of the choices in the Azzarello run, I don't like some of the choices in Finch's run, but at least she is dealing with the Amazons. I didn't expect Azzarello to fully resolve everything, but I would have liked more than we got.

[Immortal Weapon]

I don't have a problem with it. A warrior society should have a couple of skeletons in their closet.

[MarvelMaster616]

My feelings on this issue are a bit mixed. When it was first revealed, I was intrigued. I liked the idea. It made sense that the Amazons would need to reproduce somehow. This made sense in a macabre sort of way. It did undercut some of the Amazons' previous ideals, but I was willing to give them a pass because they didn't throw male babies off cliffs like the Spartans did. They just sent them away to live with Hephaestus. It's still not the most compassionate thing they could've done, but it's not the worst.

However, my feelings changed recently with the Donna Troy arc. The Amazons went from being victims of an atrocity to committing an atrocity as well. They stopped being warriors and just became war criminals. They abandoned any sense of the compassion and honor that they once had when they slaughtered their own brothers. These men didn't attack them or even threaten to attack them. They weren't just innocent. They were family. And they just slaughtered them. That completely undermines everything the Amazons stand for and at this point, I don't know how they can be redeemed.

[Barbarahardy]

it was not only unnecessary but also handled poorly, it should have been treated as shocking and also condemned outright rather than just another part of Amazonian culture this isn't like some ancient fact but in the context of the story it's akin to finding out not so distant relatives were involved in War Crimes

it's kind of hard to buy Diana their most prominent representative as a hero at this point she's done some really quite questionable things in the New52 so this is just another drop in the ocean, it's just sad that of all the directions they could've gone with their depictions of Amazonian society they chose one so singularly unpalatable

[Vanguard-01]

Again.... If someone wants to read in that a section of a single line is part of a "detailed" journal? Ok. There is still nothing there that points to anything like that. The next line could have been about anything.

As for "accuracy"? Again, there is nothing on the page to point to that. She could have said she killed ten thousand men on a five foot ship in the next line.

It was a detailed journal. They were reading through it because they were looking for information about the possible location of the Holy Grail. They wouldn't be in the fiction section of the library looking for hard data.

[borntohula]

Interesting insights, thanks for sharing, Borntohula.

It's hard for me to comment on Zola, because I still struggle to understand Zola. I understand your point that she was a vessel of sorts, but it gets muddy, imo, with Athena hiding in her (or whatever it is Athena was doing).

Thanks

I read Zola/Athena as a god, and therefor -according to the N52WW#1-35 run- there's alot mystery (in classical/typical Azzarello-fashion) attached the myth.

Hera puts it well: "As a god. There is none [consequence]. We do what we like when we like for whatever reason we like -or don't. When you live forever, the most important moment is now. It's blinding.", which is quite telling for the gods, and further explored in the chat between Dio and Hermes on life/death in WW#33. While Dio argues mortality as "there is no more to it...", Hermes understands what mortals gets out of it.

And from what I gather Athena chooses to get reborn now and then, in order to get a fresh start. "Even gods have regrets", as she puts it. Perhaps so that she wouldn't end up like Ares or Demeter. Something that either inspired Zeus into something similar, or -sinister- for his amusement.

While Athena is said to have slept inside of Zola -essentially being Zola's true nature- she could apparently still show up both in owl/person, as the wind (both cases in WW#Secret Origins) or as an owl (WW#0 and WW#35). I'm thinking she kept to Zola's body in order to hide while giving birth to Zeke/Zeus, without giving herself away.

Which is why she's not having any hesitation discarding the Zola-part when Zeus is back on the throne, which Diana opposes. Something which for me is what matters in her story, how it reaches a full circle! Because in WW#35. when Diana explains why Zola is important to her: "What you [Atena] name a vessel [Zola] has proven to be so much more. She is kind. She is clever. She is honorable and forgiving and witty and every life he's touched is better because in the midst of chaos, she showed us humanity.", telling her that she's not only important to Zeke/Zeus but also to her. For me this plays into WW#1, what Zola tells Hermes upon being told that her life is important: "That's one thing my life isn't! Meaning you're wrong!"

While I'm quite sure Zeus did it mostly for his amusement (His own messed up re-birth. Hippolyta turned into clay, thus Diana literarily being born of clay. War finding peace. Diana, who's about mercy, becoming the god of war... And so on.), I'm thinking Athena (like Ares, Hades, Orion, Hera and even -if only little- First born) is inspired* by Diana, as she ends -the long list of brilliant contradictions in- the book by saying: "I'm a godess who has faith in you [Diana].".

Awonder, this help? Hopefully making the story a bit more mysterious, less (hopefully not more) confusing!

*I put emphasis on inspired, I'm not saying changed. Because such thing takes time, and the gods have forever (another point, another time.)


And again. I definitely think the Finchs should'v gone with a soft reboot: Let some time pass. Let things become "normal" (loving), and tribute it to Diana reforms. Begin the book with: "Wow, you amazons really are different from the myths.", "Well we are now!" or something.

[Darius]

More opportunity? Azzarello had 3+ years, Finch has had 5 issues (iirc). The Amazons deserved to be more than background noise. Just as I didn't like some of the choices in the Azzarello run, I don't like some of the choices in Finch's run, but at least she is dealing with the Amazons. I didn't expect Azzarello to fully resolve everything, but I would have liked more than we got.

Opportunity to explore themes with them certainly. Azzarello left them a partially blank slate, but Finch has truly demonized them by exploring the nastier side of their society. She had a lot options open to her when she took over the book and has consistently taken a negative path with them. She hasn't introduced a single positive element. Azzarello gave them a dark history, something I've said numerous times I dislike, but he also put them on a path for enlightenment with where he left them. Hippolyta was alive (if made from clay), the males were being integrated and accepted by the women. I may not have liked what Azzarello did to them, but I truly hate what Finch has done. She had every opportunity to make progressive changes, and chose to go with regressive additions.

[wagthedog]

Thanks


And again. I definitely think the Finchs should'v gone with a soft reboot: Let some time pass. Let things become "normal" (loving), and tribute it to Diana reforms. Begin the book with: "Wow, you amazons really are different from the myths.", "Well we are now!" or something.

I think someone said this better than me when we argued over hard/soft reboots----a reboot is a reboot, whether you coin the term hard or soft. It is still a resetting of the story. You don't soft reboot a computer. I think retcon may be a better term to use.

By the way, you voted that you did like the sex pirate stuff. Why would you want to retcon this if you voted yes?

[borntohula]

I think someone said this better than me when we argued over hard/soft reboots----a reboot is a reboot, whether you coin the term hard or soft. It is still a resetting of the story. You don't soft reboot a computer. I think retcon may be a better term to use.

That's your opinion.

What I'm thinking is a soft reboot, like the one in Batgirl.

By the way, you voted that you did like the sex pirate stuff. Why would you want to retcon this if you voted yes?

Again, soft reboot. And I'd want it for the Finchs, for their sake. They should'v focused on Diana being the queen of the reformed amazons instead of trying to continue the thread that ended with WW#35. Because IMO, they're not up for it.

I think Scott Snyder could write a cool continuation of WW#1-35. A cool greek horror story.

[wagthedog]

That's your opinion.

What I'm thinking is a soft reboot, like the one in Batgirl.



Again, soft reboot. And I'd want it for the Finchs, for their sake. They should'v focused on Diana being the queen of the reformed amazons instead of trying to continue the thread that ended with WW#35. Because IMO, they're not up for it.

I think Scott Snyder could write a cool continuation of WW#1-35. A cool greek horror story.

Isn't Batgirl walking now? She's not oracle anymore, right? Sounds like a hard reboot to me if you still want to use the terms hard and soft (not in a sexual way, of course )

[InSavnity]

I voted "Yes" but I really wish the rest of the sentence had been formulated with a little less partiality. Let's say I liked that particular change introduced by Azzarello: Amazons not being a zero-growth society and reproducing through sexual encounters with inhabitants of Man's world, even though I'm obviously a tad uncomfortable with the "kill the fathers" angle (but I can sorta see the reasons for keeping the practice a secret).

Let me explain. If there's one thing that has always left me baffled about Pérez's Amazon society was that despite the Sack of the First Amazon City, the sundering of its inhabitants into Themiscyran and Bana-Mighdall, the unspecified number of passings due to natural accidents and the guarding of the gate to Tartarus, the Civil Wars, the calamities brought by super-antagonists like Circe (all of which were responsible for deaths of non-replaceable beings, since no new Amazons were ever born to eventually take their place) nothing seemed to faze life in the Island. Despite the countless Amazon deaths, the prospect of losing big chunks of their population base never seemed a concern, reaching ridiculous levels in that Gail Simone-penned issue where Amazons (who had been living without memories in Man's world as a punishment for having been part of Amazons Attack!) are back to Paradise Island and it looks like there are a few dozens left (even though you could blame Lopresti for that).

I can buy that Metropolis is rebuilt between issues because I'm not interested in reading the exploits of the re-construction teams, but when the lives of an entire people which is exclusively composed by the main character's sisters are thrown away so liberally my eyebrow pops up instinctively.

Opportunity to explore themes with them certainly. Azzarello left them a partially blank slate, but Finch has truly demonized them by exploring the nastier side of their society. She had a lot options open to her when she took over the book and has consistently taken a negative path with them. She hasn't introduced a single positive element. Azzarello gave them a dark history, something I've said numerous times I dislike, but he also put them on a path for enlightenment with where he left them. Hippolyta was alive (if made from clay), the males were being integrated and accepted by the women. I may not have liked what Azzarello did to them, but I truly hate what Finch has done. She had every opportunity to make progressive changes, and chose to go with regressive additions.

Pure Gospel! (quot. Kit Carson)

[Awonder]

Opportunity to explore themes with them certainly. Azzarello left them a partially blank slate, but Finch has truly demonized them by exploring the nastier side of their society. She had a lot options open to her when she took over the book and has consistently taken a negative path with them. She hasn't introduced a single positive element. Azzarello gave them a dark history, something I've said numerous times I dislike, but he also put them on a path for enlightenment with where he left them. Hippolyta was alive (if made from clay), the males were being integrated and accepted by the women. I may not have liked what Azzarello did to them, but I truly hate what Finch has done. She had every opportunity to make progressive changes, and chose to go with regressive additions.

I agree, Darius. Azzarello made some very questionable choices, but, at least he was moving the Amazons forward somewhat. I think he left too much undone, but Finch took the bad and made it worse. Much worse.

I got the impression from an interview that Finch/Finch started their run well in advance, so I wonder if there was some confusion regarding how Azzarello was going to finish his run. Hippolyta, for instance, was reanimated, but that didn't seem to transition over in the switch of creative teams. Maybe the editors could have done a better job making the transition smoother?

And again. I definitely think the Finchs should'v gone with a soft reboot: Let some time pass. Let things become "normal" (loving), and tribute it to Diana reforms. Begin the book with: "Wow, you amazons really are different from the myths.", "Well we are now!" or something.

A soft reboot would have been nice. Even a shift in focus from the evils of Amazon society to more of the good.

Awonder, this help? Hopefully making the story a bit more mysterious, less (hopefully not more) confusing!

I enjoyed reading your thoughts again, but I'm hesitant to comment too much here as it's mostly off-topic. I'm going to start another thread and would like you to add this post there.

[borntohula]

Isn't Batgirl walking now? She's not oracle anymore, right? Sounds like a hard reboot to me if you still want to use the terms hard and soft (not in a sexual way, of course )

New 52 Batgirl. Changing from the Simone one to Stewart. I found this. Good example. Sums it up. http://goodcomics.comicbookresources...girl-overhaul/

[Lex Luthor]

I hated the decision to make the amazons into what Azzarello made them. He took away so many of the key elements to them that made them interesting and compelling. His version aligns way more with the amazons in antiquity, which isn't a good thing at all