The "Where could they go from here" Superman and Wonder Woman thread

[Vanguard-01]

ARGUS has many superpowered threats imprisioned, Zod would be just one more. Also they could hold zod. and it wasn't personal, there was kryptonians getting loose on earth.

If Steve had merely approached Diana and said "Hey, let me take this guy. ARGUS can hold him." then that would not be personal. The fact that, during his sales pitch, he deemed it appropriate to get in Superman's face and try to denigrate him is what made it personal.

And? Once again: Superman had highly advanced containment cells from which no prisoner had ever escaped. Neither he, nor Diana, had any reason to think they couldn't hold Zod. And even if they knew ARGUS could do a better job holding him? They still didn't want to turn a Kryptonian over to the same US government that tried to turn Superman into a lab rat. Best case? Zod gets tortured to death as the government tries to find newer, better ways to kill Kryptonians. Worst case? Amanda Waller figures out how to take control of Zod and use him as her personal weapon.

Handing Zod over to ARGUS was not an option, given that ARGUS and the government they serve have proven untrustworthy.

Steve still a cool down guy, even when constantine was trolling him about being dumped by WW he was calm. he is not a jerk, nothing on his appearences suggest that. so yeah OOC

We saw him whine about being dumped. We saw him act like a douche toward Diana's new boyfriend. Totally in-character.

So WW was okay with macho display because she thought it was funny? so she is ok with chauvinist and patriarch behavior as long as it is funny. An dit later just screw up they fight with faora and zod, as apollo energize them.

Diana clearly didn't view Superman's actions as "chauvinist" or "patriarch." He even acknowledged that he knew full well that Diana could have handled the situation. She said she knew that he knew, but she enjoyed watching him smack down Apollo.

Likewise, Diana didn't say anything about viewing Steve's actions as chauvinist. She just wasn't impressed by his attempts to intimidate her new boyfriend. This isn't a "Who was sexist and who wasn't" debate.

so steve was right and she rejects him, because he is macho, but hen when clark does it in a much worse way and he was wrong she accepts and watches it like was some weak maiden. WW really feminist here

Clark didn't do anything worse than Steve did. They both talked tough. Superman only resorted to violence after Apollo struck the first blow.

Diana didn't "watch like some weak maiden." She watched like a woman who was about to enjoy watching Apollo get his ass kicked.

It's not really projecting if we both have said this is a typical human condition.

It's a typtical human condition IN THE REAL WORLD.

Comics aren't the real world. They are the realm of fantasy. Insisting that every character in comics reflect your personal views is a wrongheaded way to look at fiction.

[Blacksun]

If Steve had merely approached Diana and said "Hey, let me take this guy. ARGUS can hold him." then that would not be personal. The fact that, during his sales pitch, he deemed it appropriate to get in Superman's face and try to denigrate him is what made it personal.

And? Once again: Superman had highly advanced containment cells from which no prisoner had ever escaped. Neither he, nor Diana, had any reason to think they couldn't hold Zod. And even if they knew ARGUS could do a better job holding him? They still didn't want to turn a Kryptonian over to the same US government that tried to turn Superman into a lab rat. Best case? Zod gets tortured to death as the government tries to find newer, better ways to kill Kryptonians. Worst case? Amanda Waller figures out how to take control of Zod and use him as her personal weapon.

Handing Zod over to ARGUS was not an option, given that ARGUS and the government they serve have proven untrustworthy.

Superman never had used the containers to put prisoners, only some weird animals. he didn't knew exactly the fuction or how they worked. Both superman and WW were extremely irresponsible when they choose the fortress as a means to imprisoner Zod. Zod that is a kryptonian and know very well kruptonian tech.

something that happened 5 years ago, and also Zod is a mass murder. If only WW used her lasso in a better way to discover who he really is. it wasn't even argus that made that to superman

steve only said that the guy is kryptonian and superman is kryptonian, he asked if superman had something to do with that

We saw him whine about being dumped. We saw him act like a douche toward Diana's new boyfriend. Totally in-character.

sure I would whine too, because of stupid reasons.

Diana clearly didn't view Superman's actions as "chauvinist" or "patriarch." He even acknowledged that he knew full well that Diana could have handled the situation. She said she knew that he knew, but she enjoyed watching him smack down Apollo.

Likewise, Diana didn't say anything about viewing Steve's actions as chauvinist. She just wasn't impressed by his attempts to intimidate her new boyfriend. This isn't a "Who was sexist and who wasn't" debate.

sure she didn't view, she was badly written to applaud a sexist showdown for her honor.

well clearly steve wasn't sexist, maybe a jerk, but not sexist

Clark didn't do anything worse than Steve did. They both talked tough. Superman only resorted to violence after Apollo struck the first blow.

Diana didn't "watch like some weak maiden." She watched like a woman who was about to enjoy watching Apollo get his ass kicked.

yes, he did. He beat up a greek god that later was responsible for his and ww almost death. WW could defend herself.

[Vanguard-01]

Superman never had used the containers to put prisoners, only some weird animals. he didn't knew exactly the fuction or how they worked. Both superman and WW were extremely irresponsible when they choose the fortress as a means to imprisoner Zod. Zod that is a kryptonian and know very well kruptonian tech.

He knew how to make them lock and unlock, and they had held everything he'd ever put in them. He had no reason to believe they could be easily opened.

They were perfectly responsible to put a prisoner in a cell that, thus far, had never been breached.

something that happened 5 years ago, and also Zod is a mass murder. If only WW used her lasso in a better way to discover who he really is. it wasn't even argus that made that to superman

It's the same US government from 5 years ago. Nothing's changed with them.

No one knew Zod was a mass murderer at that time. They knew he killed a handful of people. For all they know, it was an accident. They didn't find out he was a mass murderer until much later. They had no reason to believe that it was necessary to force information out of him.

And even if they knew Zod was a mass murderer? So? For one thing, he had not yet committed any crimes against the US or any of it's citizens. ARGUS had no legal authority to arrest him. ARGUS is a US group only. For another thing, even mass murderers don't deserve to be tortured to death, and the government will use what they learn from torturing him to death to hurt Superman or Supergirl. For yet another thing, even mass murderers don't deserve to be enslaved. And since we KNOW Waller would not use him for benevolent purposes, letting her have him would have done more harm than good.

steve only said that the guy is kryptonian and superman is kryptonian, he asked if superman had something to do with that

He got in Superman's face and made it clear what he thinks of Kryptonians. Everything he did and said was meant to convey hostility toward Superman.

sure I would whine too, because of stupid reasons.

"I don't love you anymore" is a stupid reason? Because I've got a scan that shows that's the reason why Diana left him. Do you have a scan that shows that Diana only left Steve because she was afraid he'd get hurt? One that DOESN'T revolve around Steve's very biased opinion?

sure she didn't view, she was badly written to applaud a sexist showdown for her honor.

Not bad writing at all. Diana thought it would be more amusing to let Apollo learn what a bad idea it is to pick a fight with a Kryptonian. She knew Superman wasn't being sexist. Her opinion on the matter is all that matters.

yes, he did. He beat up a greek god that later was responsible for his and ww almost death. WW could defend herself.

And if Diana had beaten up Apollo instead of Superman? Do you REALLY think Apollo wouldn't have still sought revenge? Of course he would. He's a petty thug. What happened later would have happened whether it was Superman or Diana who beat up Apollo.

One thing had nothing to do with the other.

[brettc1]

It's a typical human condition IN THE REAL WORLD.

Comics aren't the real world. They are the realm of fantasy. Insisting that every character in comics reflect your personal views is a wrongheaded way to look at fiction.

It's not a personal view, it's a typical human condition.

Writing characters who can fly is fantasy. Writing characters who can fly and aren't remotely human is a fail. If you aren't going to write them like real people, why would they bother to have sex at all?

[Vanguard-01]

It's not a personal view, it's a typical human condition.

Writing characters who can fly is fantasy. Writing characters who can fly and aren't remotely human is a fail. If you aren't going to write them like real people, why would they bother to have sex at all?

We weren't talking about Superman and Wonder Woman.

We were talking about regular humans feeling intimidated at the thought of having to sexually satisfy a man or woman with godlike power far beyond what human beings should be able to do. That may be a typical human thought pattern. Or it may not be, since we've never had a human being in this position in the real world. But even if it is? So what? Comics are fantasy.

And just because YOU think that "real people" are physically incapable of getting over the fact that their new love interest formerly dated another very impressive love interest doesn't mean that DC, or anyone else, agrees with you.

Superman and Wonder Woman will NOT be alone of forlorn for the rest of this continuity simply because they first dated each other. Sorry if that's not "realistic" enough for you. But I, for one, don't agree with your opinion that that's the only possible outcome. Neither will DC. And even if it WAS realistic? So what? I could use a lot less realism in comics. I don't know about you.

I know I'd be bored to tears reading this continuity for years to come, constantly seeing Superman and Wonder Woman moping around going "Oh, woe is me! No one can ever love me! Curse you, cruel Fate, for having me first love this perfect man/woman, against whom no other creature in this vast and wondrous universe dares to compare him/herself! Alas! Alas!"

[brettc1]

We weren't talking about Superman and Wonder Woman.

We were talking about regular humans feeling intimidated at the thought of having to sexually satisfy a man or woman with godlike power far beyond what human beings should be able to do. That may be a typical human thought pattern. Or it may not be, since we've never had a human being in this position in the real world. But even if it is? So what? Comics are fantasy.

And just because YOU think that "real people" are physically incapable of getting over the fact that their new love interest formerly dated another very impressive love interest doesn't mean that DC, or anyone else, agrees with you.

There's impressive, and then there's Superman.

How un-super do you think Superman is?

Superman and Wonder Woman will NOT be alone of forlorn for the rest of this continuity simply because they first dated each other. Sorry if that's not "realistic" enough for you. But I, for one, don't agree with your opinion that that's the only possible outcome. Neither will DC. And even if it WAS realistic? So what? I could use a lot less realism in comics. I don't know about you.

I know I'd be bored to tears reading this continuity for years to come, constantly seeing Superman and Wonder Woman moping around going "Oh, woe is me! No one can ever love me! Curse you, cruel Fate, for having me first love this perfect man/woman, against whom no other creature in this vast and wondrous universe dares to compare him/herself! Alas! Alas!"

I didn't actually say it was the only possible outcome.

Personally I will be totally stoked to see Steve do better in the sack

[Vanguard-01]

There's impressive, and then there's Superman.

How un-super do you think Superman is?

"Super" still doesn't mean "perfect." It also still doesn't mean "He's the perfect boyfriend/husband to every woman in the universe."

You're just exaggerating Superman's qualities to pump up your argument. What's that even called, anyway? I know presenting a weaker version of an argument to pump up one's argument is called a "strawman." Is there a name for presenting a stronger version of an argument in order to do the same thing?

The mere fact that every woman on the planet doesn't find Superman appealing is proof enough that this whole tangent of yours is based on nothing.

Personally I will be totally stoked to see Steve do better in the sack

Never gonna happen. "Too racy" remember?

Diana laying alongside a man with whom she is in a committed relationship while showing less skin than she typically does is "too racy" to DC. A scene of Diana, in the throes of passion, while Steve Trevor breaks all the laws of physics in order to outperform a solar powered "perfect" space god is not even a distant dream to DC.

[Blacksun]

There's impressive, and then there's Superman.

How un-super do you think Superman is?



I didn't actually say it was the only possible outcome.

Personally I will be totally stoked to see Steve do better in the sack

I doubt DC will ever let Steve or even someone be better than superman.

the panel doesn't need to be racy, just have WW say to steve on the morning "this was the best night i've had"

[Vanguard-01]

I doubt DC will ever let Steve or even someone be better than superman.

There's a very good reason for that, you know?

the panel doesn't need to be racy, just have WW say to steve on the morning "this was the best night i've had"

Unless she specifies that it's the sex that was the best she's ever had, anyone can easily write that off as either Diana coddling Steve's ego, or that she's talking about the emotional fulfillment rather than the physical pleasure.

[Blacksun]

There's a very good reason for that, you know?

No, I don't know. if Marvel can mock tony stark and show richard rider at being better , IDK why steve or other characters can't be better than him. superman ultimately is far away from the gold boy he was, dc want to make him more common so they can't put him above everyone

Unless she specifies that it's the sex that was the best she's ever had, anyone can easily write that off as either Diana coddling Steve's ego, or that she's talking about the emotional fulfillment rather than the physical pleasure.

there's many ways to explicit that it is about sex without getting too graphic. that can come really sincere from her part

[Vanguard-01]

No, I don't know. if Marvel can mock tony stark and show richard rider at being better , IDK why steve or other characters can't be better than him. superman ultimately is far away from the gold boy he was, dc want to make him more common so they can't put him above everyone

DC does NOT want to make Superman more common. He's the greatest icon in comic book history. That's not going to change anytime soon.

They've let Batman jump ahead of him in plenty of areas, but Batman has at least earned that. He's outselling Superman right now. He's the biggest moneymaker DC has.

They sure as Hell aren't going to put Steve Trevor above him at anything. How iconic is Steve? Show anyone on the street a picture of him. One that doesn't include Wonder Woman. How many will recognize him? Barely anyone who wasn't already an avid Wonder Woman reader.

[brettc1]

"Super" still doesn't mean "perfect." It also still doesn't mean "He's the perfect boyfriend/husband to every woman in the universe."

This is true.

Some people are lesbians. Or evil.

You're just exaggerating Superman's qualities to pump up your argument. What's that even called, anyway? I know presenting a weaker version of an argument to pump up one's argument is called a "strawman." Is there a name for presenting a stronger version of an argument in order to do the same thing?

Ummm... a"superman"?

Come on, you didn't see that one coming?

The mere fact that every woman on the planet doesn't find Superman appealing is proof enough that this whole tangent of yours is based on nothing.

See lesbians above.

It's like talking on the ground about how much you want to jump out of a plane at 10,000 feet. It's one thing to say you don't like Superman, and another thing to keep the same perspective if he were actually right in front of you.

Never gonna happen. "Too racy" remember?

That's only for Superman.

Diana laying alongside a man with whom she is in a committed relationship while showing less skin than she typically does is "too racy" to DC. A scene of Diana, in the throes of passion, while Steve Trevor breaks all the laws of physics in order to outperform a solar powered "perfect" space god is not even a distant dream to DC.

Ah, so you do think being super powered makes a difference.

[Vanguard-01]

This is true.

Some people are lesbians. Or evil.

Zatanna? Friend of Superman. Not a lesbian. Not evil. Has never expressed any interest in sleeping with him.

Catwoman? Not evil. Not a lesbian. Delights in flirting with him and making him feel uncomfortable. Has never made a serious attempt to be with him.

Dr. Shay Veritas? Not evil. No lesbian tendencies that we've seen. Only wants to help Superman be a great hero. No sexual interest in him whatsoever.

Starfire? Not evil. Not a lesbian. Known for her considerable sexual appetites. He appeared in her Sneak Peek and all she wanted from him was advice on how to fit in on Earth. Oh, and she wanted a hug. A friendly hug. That's it.

Lois Lane in the New 52? Not a lesbian. Not evil. No sign of being really attracted to Superman in four years.

Ah, so you do think being super powered makes a difference.

When did I ever say that it didn't? In fact, I said the direct opposite when I was talking about Diana a few posts back.

Superman can hold up the weight of the planet for five days before he even starts to sweat. He's endured physical endurance feats that would've killed an ordinary human instantaneously. In terms of stamina alone, Superman should be able to perform for hours or days at a time. Unless you really think that a human soldier can somehow match the stamina of a man who can hold up the planet for five days? How can his powers NOT make a difference?

Another thing I said a while back? Sex isn't everything. Even if Superman truly is the God of Sex, and once you've been with him, everything else just seems ordinary, that still doesn't make him everyone's perfect mate.

There is more to a romantic relationship than sex, as you should well know.

[brettc1]

Zatanna? Friend of Superman. Not a lesbian. Not evil. Has never expressed any interest in sleeping with him.

Catwoman? Not evil. Not a lesbian. Delights in flirting with him and making him feel uncomfortable. Has never made a serious attempt to be with him.

Dr. Shay Veritas? Not evil. No lesbian tendencies that we've seen. Only wants to help Superman be a great hero. No sexual interest in him whatsoever.

Starfire? Not evil. Not a lesbian. Known for her considerable sexual appetites. He appeared in her Sneak Peek and all she wanted from him was advice on how to fit in on Earth. Oh, and she wanted a hug. A friendly hug. That's it.

Lois Lane in the New 52? Not a lesbian. Not evil. No sign of being really attracted to Superman in four years.

They all want Superman.

When did I ever say that it didn't? In fact, I said the direct opposite when I was talking about Diana a few posts back.

Superman can hold up the weight of the planet for five days before he even starts to sweat. He's endured physical endurance feats that would've killed an ordinary human instantaneously. In terms of stamina alone, Superman should be able to perform for hours or days at a time. Unless you really think that a human soldier can somehow match the stamina of a man who can hold up the planet for five days? How can his powers NOT make a difference?

How indeed.

Another thing I said a while back? Sex isn't everything. Even if Superman truly is the God of Sex, and once you've been with him, everything else just seems ordinary, that still doesn't make him everyone's perfect mate.

There is more to a romantic relationship than sex, as you should well know.

Sure.

But aren't we talking about the most noble man in the universe?

[brettc1]

There's even a web page

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-...kissed-651237/