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  1. #31
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I don't know about that. The only real reason to want someone like Dick to work for them is to use him as a way to get to Batman. I firmly believe that Kathy wants him to just mess with Bruce in at least some capacity. Dick doesn't really have anything else to hang his hat on in the New 52 other than being close with Bruce and his right hand man.
    Yes, of course Kathy wants to mess with Bruce though Dick but since he's not really available at the moment what would be the point of doing so right now? Unless she knows with certainty that he is still alive, and we have no idea if she does or not at this point, that would seem counterproductive when she could be using that energy to pull Dick father into Spyral's net by changing the tone of it.
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  2. #32
    Astonishing Member RobinFan4880's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    Nightwing was doing just as good (if not a little better) and it was cancelled all the same because Johns wanted the character in a chair for 6 issues.

    They don't want Dick as Batman because they want something new.
    Nightwing was a mess of a comic because it could never find its footing between the radical shifts in creative directions (I'm not batman, I want to own a circus, I want to move to Chicago, I want to be in Gotham, etc.) and constantly being pulled into the latest Batman event. The title was a POC that needed to be radically reformatted and allowed to do its own thing for a long while. Grayson is doing just that.
    Last edited by RobinFan4880; 06-02-2015 at 12:02 PM.

  3. #33
    Spectacular Member dick_wingnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinFan4880 View Post
    Nightwing was a mess of a comic because it could never find its footing between the radical shifts in creative directions (I'm not batman, I want to own a circus, I want to move to Chicago, I want to be in Gotham, etc.) and constantly being pulled into the latest Batman event. The title was a POC that needed to be radically reformatted and allowed to do its own thing for a long while. Grayson is doing just that.
    By stripping him of everything he has ever been outside of some optimistic charming beefcake for hornballs, and hurling him to the hinterlands of obscurity with garbage wildstorm and boring reimagined characters as support.

    Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

  4. #34
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    U have to take off the old jacket to put on a new one.

  5. #35
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick_wingnut View Post
    By stripping him of everything he has ever been outside of some optimistic charming beefcake for hornballs, and hurling him to the hinterlands of obscurity with garbage wildstorm and boring reimagined characters as support.

    Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.
    Whoa, have you even read the book? It's the best book at either of the "Big Two". Huntress is his partner, he's always worked with her.

  6. #36
    Spectacular Member TheDarkNut's Avatar
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    Because:

    1) Grayson is stuck with Spyral.
    2) Everyone thinks Grayson is dead.
    3) Dick might know that Bruce is alive.

  7. #37
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I don't know about that. The only real reason to want someone like Dick to work for them is to use him as a way to get to Batman. I firmly believe that Kathy wants him to just mess with Bruce in at least some capacity. Dick doesn't really have anything else to hang his hat on in the New 52 other than being close with Bruce and his right hand man.
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    Yes, of course Kathy wants to mess with Bruce though Dick but since he's not really available at the moment what would be the point of doing so right now? Unless she knows with certainty that he is still alive, and we have no idea if she does or not at this point, that would seem counterproductive when she could be using that energy to pull Dick father into Spyral's net by changing the tone of it.
    Kathy has already showed that if she wanted to get to Bruce, or mess with him, she could do that relatively easy. He's a boy playing in his pajamas to her. She's trying to steal Dick from him. She wants his asset to become her asset.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-02-2015 at 09:12 PM.

  8. #38
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Kathy has already showed that if she wanted to get to Bruce, or mess with him, she could do that relatively easy. He's a boy playing in his pajamas to her. She's trying to steal Dick from him. She wants his asset to become her asset.
    Exactly, and one way she could manage that would be to make Spyral look better to Dick then returning to Gotham to be Batman does. What better way to do that then to send him a series of missions were he's can do what he does best: protecting others only this time it's on a grander scale and a larger stage then Gotham. If he could be made to feel that the work he was doing with them was far more worthwhile than working in Gotham would be he might be more inclined to stay with them, especially if he has lost contact with Bruce. This would in turn have the possible effect of strengthening his loyalty to Spyral which might, in turn, lead to him eventually having more loyalty to Kathy then to Bruce at some critical juncture down the line.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 06-02-2015 at 09:56 PM.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Kathy has already showed that if she wanted to get to Bruce, or mess with him, she could do that relatively easy. He's a boy playing in his pajamas to her. She's trying to steal Dick from him. She wants his asset to become her asset.
    She pokes the bear yes but she would never openly antagonize Bruce. He is an absurdly Dangerous man who to her is child because he doesn't work on her level It doesn't mean his arms are to short to box with her if it came down to it. Bruce would be hurt but Her Organization would not be what it is If bruce decided to try and break it up.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member RobinFan4880's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dick_wingnut View Post
    By stripping him of everything he has ever been outside of some optimistic charming beefcake for hornballs, and hurling him to the hinterlands of obscurity with garbage wildstorm and boring reimagined characters as support.

    Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.
    In principle, yes, that is what happened.

    In practice, Dick is becoming so much more than he was by freeing himself of the Bat. He's become interesting and relevant in a way he hadn't been in a decade (outside of being Batman for a few years).

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Kathy has already showed that if she wanted to get to Bruce, or mess with him, she could do that relatively easy. He's a boy playing in his pajamas to her. She's trying to steal Dick from him. She wants his asset to become her asset.
    But the difference is that was under Morrison's pen. He made Kathy matter because he was using her, but it isn't really the same landscape now. Spyral isn't really this organization that carries a lot of weight currently because they are no longer part of this big story. Bruce is on such a higher level than her and Spyral right now that I think all she can really do is use Dick to go after him.

    It's sort of one of the problems I have with Grayson in general. Nightwing just didn't work in the New 52. He lost too much and it made the role seem redundant, so I am fine with him moving on to something new, but I don't think Spyral has been that interesting, or feel like a real threat (I hope bringing in characters like Lex changes my outlook on it), but when you look at DC there aren't really any better alternatives. They just don't have a SHIELD or even an Avengers type of organization where Dick could easily transition into a new role, like a spy, and have this big foundation to work out of. All the DC hero teams are sort of independently run. Plus Dick is never going to be put on their big one, the Justice League, and the official organizations, like ARGUS, aren't really that interesting either.

    So I just don't know if Grayson will be able to make Spyral feel as big as they claim to be, and if he isn't better off just creating his own team or joining a tangent JL-like team (which sadly is the only team/organization that has any importance in DC now) where he can do more and interact with people in more of a free way than work out of Spyral. I guess it is one of those things that only time will tell.

  12. #42
    Inquisitive Dzetoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post

    It's sort of one of the problems I have with Grayson in general. Nightwing just didn't work in the New 52. He lost too much and it made the role seem redundant, so I am fine with him moving on to something new, but I don't think Spyral has been that interesting, or feel like a real threat (I hope bringing in characters like Lex changes my outlook on it), but when you look at DC there aren't really any better alternatives. They just don't have a SHIELD or even an Avengers type of organization where Dick could easily transition into a new role, like a spy, and have this big foundation to work out of. All the DC hero teams are sort of independently run. Plus Dick is never going to be put on their big one, the Justice League, and the official organizations, like ARGUS, aren't really that interesting either.

    So I just don't know if Grayson will be able to make Spyral feel as big as they claim to be, and if he isn't better off just creating his own team or joining a tangent JL-like team (which sadly is the only team/organization that has any importance in DC now) where he can do more and interact with people in more of a free way than work out of Spyral. I guess it is one of those things that only time will tell.
    You have certainly identified a big challenge for the Grayson folks. How and if they navigate it will be telling.

    I think Seeley, King, and Doyle are basically truthful about their respect for the character and their preferences with regard to how they would like to see him develop. I say basically because there is always some level of spin and manipulation involved in dealing with the public. It's the nature of art and business as much as of politics, and of course both art and business include a large amount of politics. And, of course, writers and editors will always approach the fictional universe from a different perspective than readers and fans. Still, as I say, I think Seeley, King, and Doyle really would like big things for Grayson.

    But, given the realities of their business coupled with the structure of the DCU that has built up over the years, it's a big project to move a character into a much more prominent position. Here I have to speak from personal experience, but in my line of work I have watched as many major projects have arisen to great hope and hoopla only to gradually fall apart and come to very little, if anything. Oh, often the people involved are genuine enough in their intentions and enthusiasm. The larger organization may even be more-or-less honest in its expressions of support. But time moves on, practical difficulties emerge as the needs of the project impinge on other activities, political problems inevitably appear for all sorts of reasons, personnel changes as people retire or get promoted or take other jobs, newer and shinier things come along to distract allies and upper leadership, and the inertia of existing arrangements turns out to be far stronger and reinforced by far more factors than anyone expected. Then, as you watch, one by one promises get broken, intentions fail, and goals first diminish then are abandoned altogether.

    All of which is to say that it isn't fair on the evidence to accuse anyone of cynicism or lying about DC's intentions for Grayson. But people taking a doubtful or even a jaundiced view of the situation are scarcely being silly. The next year should give us some valuable information. When we have these discussions in June 2016, it should be much clearer whether DC is really on the path they have talked about with regard to Grayson, or whether this is yet another case of high hopes and good intentions sliced and diced by reality.
    Last edited by Dzetoun; 06-03-2015 at 02:11 AM.

  13. #43
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    In my opinion Dick doesn't need to touch the mantle again. Here me out, I feel like DickBats was the closing chapter in the long standing Batman lite era of Dick Grayson. I say that because from my point of view he finally got a form of closure with being the bat. An integral part Nightwings story is trying not to be Bruce and stepping out of his shadow. Well putting on the cowl did just that, it brought everything out in a way. No longer was he in the Bats shadow, he was the bat. He developed in a since that he was truly his own man, not saying he wasn't before. But, once he put on the cowl and accepted it, he was truly his own man. To me other than NTT, B&R has the best Dick Grayson character development ever

  14. #44
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiderWing20 View Post
    In my opinion Dick doesn't need to touch the mantle again. Here me out, I feel like DickBats was the closing chapter in the long standing Batman lite era of Dick Grayson. I say that because from my point of view he finally got a form of closure with being the bat. An integral part Nightwings story is trying not to be Bruce and stepping out of his shadow. Well putting on the cowl did just that, it brought everything out in a way. No longer was he in the Bats shadow, he was the bat. He developed in a since that he was truly his own man, not saying he wasn't before. But, once he put on the cowl and accepted it, he was truly his own man. To me other than NTT, B&R has the best Dick Grayson character development ever
    The whole point of Dick as Robin was to eventually take over as Batman when Bruce was no longer able. Dick as Nightwing was to be a hero away from Bruce because he felt like he needed to do his own thing and do it differently than Bruce. But he eventually realized that he had to become the Batman. The over arcing story of Dick since his creation was to grow into the Batman role which he did but after finishing an almost 70ish year arc to be Batman he needed to find purpose as the new Batman which we didn't get because his time was cut short. This is why I find it so hard to get behind Grayson, it's not where Dick should be as a character he should be leading the JLA with Donna and other legacy characters like he was before the reboot, he should be with Damien in Gotham kicking ass as the new Dynamic Duo, he should be the Batman for a new generation. But no, instead we have a bare bones Dick Grayson that is only sort of like what we had before but not as good. He has no place in the new 52 when the whole idea of Dick's main arc of becoming Batman has apparently happened already off panel.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzetoun View Post
    You have certainly identified a big challenge for the Grayson folks. How and if they navigate it will be telling.

    I think Seeley, King, and Doyle are basically truthful about their respect for the character and their preferences with regard to how they would like to see him develop. I say basically because there is always some level of spin and manipulation involved in dealing with the public. It's the nature of art and business as much as of politics, and of course both art and business include a large amount of politics. And, of course, writers and editors will always approach the fictional universe from a different perspective than readers and fans. Still, as I say, I think Seeley, King, and Doyle really would like big things for Grayson.

    But, given the realities of their business coupled with the structure of the DCU that has built up over the years, it's a big project to move a character into a much more prominent position. Here I have to speak from personal experience, but in my line of work I have watched as many major projects have arisen to great hope and hoopla only to gradually fall apart and come to very little, if anything. Oh, often the people involved are genuine enough in their intentions and enthusiasm. The larger organization may even be more-or-less honest in its expressions of support. But time moves on, practical difficulties emerge as the needs of the project impinge on other activities, political problems inevitably appear for all sorts of reasons, personnel changes as people retire or get promoted or take other jobs, newer and shinier things come along to distract allies and upper leadership, and the inertia of existing arrangements turns out to be far stronger and reinforced by far more factors than anyone expected. Then, as you watch, one by one promises get broken, intentions fail, and goals first diminish then are abandoned altogether.

    All of which is to say that it isn't fair on the evidence to accuse anyone of cynicism or lying about DC's intentions for Grayson. But people taking a doubtful or even a jaundiced view of the situation are scarcely being silly. The next year should give us some valuable information. When we have these discussions in June 2016, it should be much clearer whether DC is really on the path they have talked about with regard to Grayson, or whether this is yet another case of high hopes and good intentions sliced and diced by reality.
    As if by magic....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom King
    the process we're going through with Grayson [hasn't] ended. Our goal was for Dick Grayson to become a hero as big as Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, and we're not there yet. If we rest on our laurels and start writing lazy, then we'll never get there. But this was a cool step in the right direction.

    As is this interview.
    http://www.blastr.com/2015-6-3/tom-k...t-cover-reveal
    Last edited by Claude; 06-03-2015 at 11:43 AM.

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