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  1. #16
    Protect the weak. Darth Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    Well, yes, in the case of the Phoenix Force (or Cosmic entity) then it's an Act of God: The PF destroy and create. That's its function in the working of the universe. You may as well blame a flood or an earthquake.
    Well if ur the Shiar the only answer is to genocide that host's bloodline and SWORD and SHIELD will turn a blind eye, hell SHIELD might send in some Setinels to help.

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  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by OpticDreams View Post
    Wouldn't Tony stark be in some sort of legal trouble in cykes trial.
    Well assuming he has a team of grossly overpaid lawyers, chances are he won't be tried. But ignoring the influence of his wealth, I think he would bear at least some of the blame. However, in a court of law, this doesn't mean he's liable in the death of Charles Xavier. As Narasinha articulated, intent does matter. Tony didn't intend to force the Phoenix into the Phoenix Five. He was trying to stop it from destroying Earth. And unless there's any evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that he intended for this to happen, he really can't be charged with anything. Maybe he could get a reckless endangerment charged levied against him, but he could probably pay any fine levied against him or subvert the charge completely. There might be other implications, but I'd need to consult a lawyer for that.

    For Emma and Mastermind, however, that's a different story. They would definitely be charged with a crime. Kidnapping and assault is a given at the very least. They took Jean against her will and manipulated her. They turned someone who was able to manage the Phoenix Force just fine and turned her into the monster who would go onto commit the crime. Even if they didn't intend for the D'brai incident to happen, they are still guilty of assaulting and tormenting Jean Grey. Mastermind, in this case, would probably get the harshest sentence. Emma Frost would probably only be called an accessory to a crime, which carries much lighter penalties. But the fact remains they were the catalyst for the crimes of Dark Phoenix.
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  3. #18
    BANNED dragonmp93's Avatar
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    Wait, are we talking about the trial during the DPS ? or when Gladiator tried to kill Teen Jean ?.

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    Oh, really? The real Jean, that was in the cocoon, and who didn't made those things forgave Mastermind at the end. But she sure knew that Phoenix had been a victim of his and Emma's manipulation.

    It's fairly common for someone who has hurt/killed another person by accident, even if he/she couldn't have done anything or have avoided it, to feel guilty about it. Some people can never live with their guilt and end-up killing themselve even if they were absolutely not responsible. It doesn't mean that the person is responsible or that it was his/her fault. Only that she/he human.
    To the italics: This is what bothered me with the trial of Jean Grey. Nobody there was aware of the whole body swap thing, including Jeen who like to snoop in everyone's heads?

    Anyway, I always find those charges that get brought up to her funny just because it wasn't Jean. She was still recuperating from her injuries at the bottom of the Hudson if I remember correctly.
    They are, in other words, posed the way their male colleagues are typically posed. They are posed as heroes.
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  5. #20
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    Second-Degree Murder would only apply if Cyclops was in a coherent state of mind as well. Pretty much everyone agrees he wasn’t and there is plenty of precedent to show that the Phoenix Force does not put someone in the right state of mind. So Second-Degree Murder doesn’t fit either.
    Cyclops was coherent enough to, until the moment he turned Dark phoenix, pursue his stated goal of mutant restoration.
    He was clear enough to stop Emma from going dark phoenix.
    He was coherent enough that he spelled out his reason which was intensely personal: to get Charles out of his life.
    It was only -after- he killed Charles that he can really claim to have lost his coherence.
    In fact Scott himself admitted after the fact that he'd do it all over again.

    So sure not first degree murder, i don't think anyone thinks Scott planned to kill Charles, but I wouldn't let him off the hook for second degree murder.
    He had motive, opportunity, a weapon, and witnesses aplenty.

  6. #21
    Top Class Breeding ;) Mr. Brightside's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    He had motive, opportunity, a weapon, and witnesses aplenty.
    Not to mention a self-defense motion since Xavier attacked and provoked him when he and Emma were doing nothing more than eating steaks. A man getting shot and killed while trespassing at worst.
    CANON: "Cyclops, the most important mutant in 616" - The scientific community of the 616

  7. #22
    Mighty Member Kal-El Summers's Avatar
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    Don't exactly know how provocation works in the courts, but you could possibly make a case against Cap for provoking things in the final battle that lead to Xavier's death. Also probably get Hawkeye on attempted murder.

  8. #23
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    "I was speaking in Boston with a federal prosecutor who is a fan of the Uncanny X-Men, and left the issue of n 137. When you tell the position of Jim, she hallucinated, why he might have escaped from prison in those circumstances! Easily.Only he has needed a psychiatric examination.
    Under the law, if you wake up from a deep sleep and kill who has awakened you, you can not be charged with murder because you still have no conscious control over your actions. You're still in the arms of Morpheus. Jean was in a similar situation, had no conscious control over their actions.
    ** It is a fragment of an interview with Claremont, right out of the magazine Plot2.0

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonmp93 View Post
    Wait, are we talking about the trial during the DPS ? or when Gladiator tried to kill Teen Jean ?.
    An hypotetical trial of Phoenix/Jean Grey after the actions of Dark Phoenix.

    Not a trial of the Jean Grey that was in the cocoon at the bottom of the sea because she isn't concerned by that at all.
    Not a trial of Jean Grey possessed by the Phoenix because obviously, if she is controled by someone/something else, she isn't responsible for what that other entity made her do.

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    Cyclops was coherent enough to, until the moment he turned Dark phoenix, pursue his stated goal of mutant restoration.
    He was clear enough to stop Emma from going dark phoenix.
    He was coherent enough that he spelled out his reason which was intensely personal: to get Charles out of his life.
    It was only -after- he killed Charles that he can really claim to have lost his coherence.
    In fact Scott himself admitted after the fact that he'd do it all over again.

    So sure not first degree murder, i don't think anyone thinks Scott planned to kill Charles, but I wouldn't let him off the hook for second degree murder.
    He had motive, opportunity, a weapon, and witnesses aplenty.
    I can see the prosecution arguing this at a trial. However, I think there is cause for reasonable doubt in this instance, especially when you consider issues like provocation and self-defense.

    Let's say for the sake of argument that Cyclops was coherent under the Phoenix Force (and that is debatable, considering the Phoenix's history). I don't think that coherence lasted when people started attacking him. Even without the Phoenix Force, being attacked does provoke a negative response. And on multiple occasions, Cyclops and other members of the Phoenix Five lamented about how overwhelming the power was. Emma in particular highlighted this. But even without it, you can't ignore the fact that Xavier was actively attacking Cyclops and they were in a very stressful situation that Cyclops didn't provoke. It was the Avengers who threw the first punch. It was Charles Xavier who went out of his way to attack Cyclops. And as demonstrated in previous instances, the Phoenix Force does not respond well to that kind of distress. So even if you're going to convict him, Second-Degree murder is an extreme push. At one point, Cyclops admitted things got fuzzy in his memories as well. So someone who isn't aware or in control can't be condemned for crimes of such magnitude, especially when they were purposefully provoked.
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  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    Cyclops was coherent enough to, until the moment he turned Dark phoenix (...)

    So sure not first degree murder, i don't think anyone thinks Scott planned to kill Charles, but I wouldn't let him off the hook for second degree murder.
    He had motive, opportunity, a weapon, and witnesses aplenty.
    Scott case is a lot trickier than Dark Phoenix, imho: He didn't asked for the PF. It was imposed on him. But he was still pretty much himself and in control of his acts, at least in apparences.

    The question is if he was conscious of his actions. If he was able to make a judgment call by himself or if his mental process was enough altered by the Phoenix Force so that he didn't do it on own free will?

    If Scott was enough responsible of his act, then it may still be "Voluntary Manslaughter" and not second-degree murder: It was not premedited (at least that what we assume) and there was causes to make him emotionally or mentally disturbed.

    Expert would have to try to determine the degree of responsibility and Scott's mind frame when he killed Xavier. Which is very subjective and prone to error.

    Edit: I haven't read AvX so I can't really tell. But from the few things I read about it, can't it be considered self-defense? Xavier and the others were trying to kill Scott, no?
    Last edited by Narasinha; 06-01-2015 at 11:50 AM.

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by sfgiantsfanmike View Post
    To the italics: This is what bothered me with the trial of Jean Grey. Nobody there was aware of the whole body swap thing, including Jeen who like to snoop in everyone's heads?
    We are not speaking of the "Trial of Jean Grey": You can't hold her liable for maybe, one day, in the future, attract a cosmic entity that will destroy a star.

    It's even more stupid because, and it's canon, Phoenix (the cosmic entity) came to Jean Grey as it needed an host/avatar to fix the M'Kraan Crystal and save the whole universe. Phoenix didn't took an avatar/host just for the fun of it but because there was a job to do.

    We are speaking of Phoenix/Jean Grey responsibility (assuming Jean Grey isn't just possessed by a cosmic entity) at the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga.

  13. #28
    BANNED dragonmp93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    Scott case is a lot trickier than Dark Phoenix, imho: He didn't asked for the PF. It was imposed on him. But he was still pretty much himself and in control of his acts, at least in apparences.

    The question is if he was conscious of his actions. If he was able to make a judgment call by himself or if his mental process was enough altered by the Phoenix Force so that he didn't do it on own free will?

    If Scott was enough responsible of his act, then it may still be "Voluntary Manslaughter" and not second-degree murder: It was not premedited (at least that what we assume) and there was causes to make him emotionally or mentally disturbed.

    Expert would have to try to determine the degree of responsibility and Scott's mind frame when he killed Xavier. Which is very subjective and prone to error.
    Well, given that Cyclops was having a dinner with Emma when they were trying to kill each other, so i guess that his mind lost contact with his body once Magik and Colossus lost their parts of the Phoenix Force. (Emma lost it earlier.)

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    Scott case is a lot trickier than Dark Phoenix, imho: He didn't asked for the PF. It was imposed on him. But he was still pretty much himself and in control of his acts, at least in apparences.

    The question is if he was conscious of his actions. If he was able to make a judgment call by himself or if his mental process was enough altered by the Phoenix Force so that he didn't do it on own free will?

    If Scott was enough responsible of his act, then it may still be "Voluntary Manslaughter" and not second-degree murder: It was not premedited (at least that what we assume) and there was causes to make him emotionally or mentally disturbed.

    Expert would have to try to determine the degree of responsibility and Scott's mind frame when he killed Xavier. Which is very subjective and prone to error.

    Edit: I haven't read AvX so I can't really tell. But from the few things I read about it, can't it be considered self-defense? Xavier and the others were trying to kill Scott, no?
    Good point. And I would argue that there's more than enough reasonable doubt to disprove the assertion that Cyclops was lucid at the time. There is precedent for the Phoenix Force's influence on its users, such as Jean Grey and other members of the Phoenix Five. In a court of law, that could be cited as evidence that he was not in a clear state of mind, thereby making Second-Degree Murder moot and Voluntary Manslaughter a stretch. Perhaps a good real-world analogy would be comparing his experience to those who suffer the side-effects of certain drugs. It's well understood that those under the influence of alcohol and certain prescription medications blackout and have no memory of their actions. If we use that same standard with the Phoenix Force, then I think a defense lawyer could rightly claim that Cyclops was not in a clear state of mind.

    This would add even more weight to the provocation and self-defense positions. Provoking someone who is not in a clear state of mind, as the Avengers and Charles Xavier did, tends to evoke a very unreasonable action. But there's a difference between provoking and attacking. In the context of the situation, Charles Xavier was attacking Cyclops. Even if it's with telepathy, it's still an attack with the intent to harm and subdue. It would be like someone trying to beat another person up until they passed out or were in too much pain to keep struggling. That's not the same as someone just being harassed or yelled at. In that context, it could be argued that the proportional response was justified. For all we know, Xavier could've killed Cyclops with his attack and so could the Avengers. Hawkeye shot him in the neck with an arrow at one point. And there is plenty of precedent for the damaging effects telepathic attacks have on people. That would, legally speaking, establish a situation where he life was in imminent danger. I think this makes the case for self-defense very strong. And if the prosecution can't cast reasonable doubt on this, then Cyclops would be acquitted. He wouldn't go to jail. He wouldn't face any legal penalties. Maybe someone could sue him in a civil suit, but the state could not charge him with a crime.
    Last edited by MarvelMaster616; 06-01-2015 at 12:58 PM.
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  15. #30
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    Charles had no intent to harm. Subdue yes, harm no.

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