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  1. #31
    Mighty Member Kal-El Summers's Avatar
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    Hawkeye shooting him in the back of the neck would qualify for the "harm" portion. Also, everything was part of a coordinated attack violating his person that Scott already warned him in the past to never do again back in Legacy.
    Last edited by Kal-El Summers; 06-01-2015 at 01:26 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kal-El Summers View Post
    Hawkeye shooting him in the back of the neck would qualify for the "harm" portion. Also, everything was part of a coordinated attack violating his person that Scott already warned him in the past to never do again back in Legacy.
    Scott was beyond the ability to harm. Why not kill Hawkeye?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arya View Post
    Scott was beyond the ability to harm. Why not kill Hawkeye?
    Well, Emma tried that after he shot her... Cyke prolly said "fuggit".

  4. #34
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    I don't think that coherence lasted when people started attacking him. Even without the Phoenix Force, being attacked does provoke a negative response.
    People get provoked all the time for any number of reasons. Most people who get provoked don't end up killing their mentor and father figure.
    Dozens of people can bear witness to the fact that is the reason Scott gave when he killed Charles: "you are not my father".

    Even without the Phoenix Force, being attacked does provoke a negative response.
    But being attacked does not automatically get you a Get-Out-Of-Jail card for second degree murder. Certainly not when you provoke the situation yourself.

    you can't ignore the fact that Xavier was actively attacking Cyclops and they were in a very stressful situation that Cyclops didn't provoke.
    He was totally provoking it! He was planning on turning normal humans into mutants to serve as breeding fodder so his race wouldn't go extinct!
    The closest analogy in the real world i can come up with were the nazi rape camps they sent lesbians to in order to force them to become arian breeders.
    That alone is disgusting enough to warrant putting him in jail forever.
    And he planned on using a cosmic force responsible for destroying planets to make it so!
    Let's not pretend like he was eating out of his nose and got attacked without cause.

    It was the Avengers who threw the first punch.
    Actually Cyclops threw the first punch when the Avengers first came to Utopia ...

    I don't think that coherence lasted when people started attacking him.
    This is a court case, madam. The prosecutor has witnesses who can attest to Scott's goal of turning normal humans into mutant breeding fodder and who can attest to the danger of using a cosmic force to do so. This goal and the method he planned to use was known well before he lost control and declared himself Dark Phoenix. At which point was he no longer in control of his own actions? Because from what I can tell he lost control -after- he killed Charles Xavier. Until that very specific moment he was pushing his own agenda, he was acting on his own personal grduge towards Charles. Killing Charles was the immoral action that put the Dark Phoenix in charge. He can claim incoherency when he was nearly burning the world but not before.

    There is precedent for the Phoenix Force's influence on its users, such as Jean Grey and other members of the Phoenix Five.
    Prosecution calls Rachel Summers to the stand.
    Prosecution calls witnesses to the stand who can corroborate that the Phoenix itself only lost control under the influence of mental coersion boosted by artificial means to turn her evil.
    Prosecution calls to the stand the members of the Phoenix corps, all of whom seemed to be in perfect control of the Phoenix force.
    Last edited by pro; 06-01-2015 at 01:44 PM.

  5. #35
    Supes/WW <3 OpticDreams's Avatar
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    Why wouldn't he throw the first punch. He showed he wasn't a coward. So would you let someone come to your house and push you around?
    Last edited by OpticDreams; 06-01-2015 at 02:05 PM.
    Interesting Fact: Cyclops runs the X-Office.

  6. #36
    Junior Member antiochene's Avatar
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    Oh wow, the thread went Godwin already...

  7. #37
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    Why wouldn't he throw the first punch. He showed he wasn't a coward.
    Try that one in court when you're up on assault charges.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    Prosecution calls Rachel Summers to the stand.
    First thing she did was steal her friends life energy and try to destroy the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    Prosecution calls witnesses to the stand who can corroborate that the Phoenix itself only lost control under the influence of mental coersion boosted by artificial means to turn her evil.
    That host/avatar was choosen by the Phoenix and it's only because Jean's personality and willpower limited it's power to something manageable by a mortal that she didn't went crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    Prosecution calls to the stand the members of the Phoenix corps, all of whom seemed to be in perfect control of the Phoenix force.
    The so-called Phoenix corps doesn't seems to exist in this plane of reality and isn't composed of mortals anymore. No more than Jean, as White Phoenix, was a mortal when she hold the universe in her hands.

    (And pity, don't mention future QQ: That's reason enough to plead insanity)

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Why should we use the US's law as reference? Those are bird-like aliens that use empathic glowing bubbles as jury for their trials and that accept judicial duels as a way to settle legal issues...what makes you think that their laws and their concept of justice is anything like the US's?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Why should we use the US's law as reference? Those are bird-like aliens that use empathic glowing bubbles as jury for their trials and that accept judicial duels as a way to settle legal issues...what makes you think that their laws and their concept of justice is anything like the US's?
    Because, man, like...the Earth/US is the center of the universe, y'know!
    Last edited by Star_Jammer; 06-01-2015 at 02:05 PM.

  11. #41
    Supes/WW <3 OpticDreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    Try that one in court when you're up on assault charges.
    Stand you ground laws. I was threatened. So I responded.
    Interesting Fact: Cyclops runs the X-Office.

  12. #42
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Jean would be not guilty for reasons already mentioned but Cyke is a tougher call.

    1. The Avengers were operating with governmental authority so the claim of self defense fails when it comes to Cyke. It's not self defense when the authorities come to arrest you and you resist and in so doing cause someone's death. Doesn't matter how just or good you think Cyke was behaving up to that point.

    2. Cyke courted the power of the Phoenix. This is clear because his plan involved training Hope to assume that power. He courted that power knowing the dangers involved as he was intimately aware of how that power had corrupted Jean.

    3. When the power passed to him and the P5, he made no effort to remove such power from him. Instead he moved forward with plans to remake the world as he saw fit and it was clear that he was not out of control. Again being intimately aware of the risks of such a power he ultimately decided to use that power for his own ends and in doing so assumes responsibilties for the outcome of that decision imo.

    5. The conflict between Cyke and the Avengers was foreseeable by him. Cyke knew the avengers and other Xmen feared the power and he knew they would oppose him. Further he knew the Avengers were acting at the behest of the US Government. He made the decision that he would ignore all of that and pursue his goals using the PF and he cant now claim, he didn't know this would happen when he faced opposition right up until the power was thrust upon him.

    So based on the above he would be guilty of voluntary manslaughter at a minimum and possible 2nd degree murder. Regardless of how he came into the power, it is clear he consciously choose to use it for his own ends knowing full well agents of the government would oppose him and kmowing full well the corrupting influence of said power.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpticDreams View Post
    Stand you ground laws. I was threatened. So I responded.
    Eh, while California has adopted stand-your-ground-laws, wasn't Utopia mostly...not apart of the US? (sorry, need some clarification here)

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Why should we use the US's law as reference? Those are bird-like aliens that use empathic glowing bubbles as jury for their trials and that accept judicial duels as a way to settle legal issues...what makes you think that their laws and their concept of justice is anything like the US's?
    Because we are speculating about the story's interpretation. Not about a real judgment in the comics.
    And it's not just US laws: most countries have similar distinction in the levels of severity and responsibility.

    It's pointless to speculate about alien race's laws in the comic: Anything is possible. The Shi'ar dont even have any jurisdiction: It wasn't one of their star system. As for other cosmic being, at least one of them, Death, passed its judgment on the Phoenix host/avatar.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    We are not speaking of the "Trial of Jean Grey": You can't hold her liable for maybe, one day, in the future, attract a cosmic entity that will destroy a star.

    It's even more stupid because, and it's canon, Phoenix (the cosmic entity) came to Jean Grey as it needed an host/avatar to fix the M'Kraan Crystal and save the whole universe. Phoenix didn't took an avatar/host just for the fun of it but because there was a job to do.

    We are speaking of Phoenix/Jean Grey responsibility (assuming Jean Grey isn't just possessed by a cosmic entity) at the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga.
    Actually...


    The molestation of M'Kraan Crystal and it's subsequent repair happened well after Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force became one.
    Last edited by ZNOP; 06-01-2015 at 03:00 PM.

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