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  1. #46
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    First thing she did was steal her friends life energy and try to destroy the universe.
    but she didn't claim the Dark Phoenix made her do it, which seems to be what the defense wants us to believe in regards to Scott Summers. She also -didn't- destroy the universe because she didn't lose control despite the phoenix force. And Rachel was tortured sicne she was a little girl, used to hunt down her loved ones, lost her entire world, saw another almost going to hell, went to future and saw the world go to shit all over again, she was mortally wounded by Wolverine and she never went dark side.

    The so-called Phoenix corps doesn't seems to exist in this plane of reality and isn't composed of mortals anymore. No more than Jean, as White Phoenix, was a mortal when she hold the universe in her hands.
    Objection your honor, unless defense can prove her statements she is just drawing her own conclusions in favor of the defendant.

    Stand you ground laws. I was threatened. So I responded.
    You refused to cooperate with a legal sanction and then you shot at the cops.

  2. #47
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    Jean would be not guilty for reasons already mentioned but Cyke is a tougher call.

    1. The Avengers were operating with governmental authority so the claim of self defense fails when it comes to Cyke. It's not self defense when the authorities come to arrest you and you resist and in so doing cause someone's death. Doesn't matter how just or good you think Cyke was behaving up to that point.

    2. Cyke courted the power of the Phoenix. This is clear because his plan involved training Hope to assume that power. He courted that power knowing the dangers involved as he was intimately aware of how that power had corrupted Jean.

    3. When the power passed to him and the P5, he made no effort to remove such power from him. Instead he moved forward with plans to remake the world as he saw fit and it was clear that he was not out of control. Again being intimately aware of the risks of such a power he ultimately decided to use that power for his own ends and in doing so assumes responsibilties for the outcome of that decision imo.

    5. The conflict between Cyke and the Avengers was foreseeable by him. Cyke knew the avengers and other Xmen feared the power and he knew they would oppose him. Further he knew the Avengers were acting at the behest of the US Government. He made the decision that he would ignore all of that and pursue his goals using the PF and he cant now claim, he didn't know this would happen when he faced opposition right up until the power was thrust upon him.

    So based on the above he would be guilty of voluntary manslaughter at a minimum and possible 2nd degree murder. Regardless of how he came into the power, it is clear he consciously choose to use it for his own ends knowing full well agents of the government would oppose him and kmowing full well the corrupting influence of said power.
    Exactly right.

  3. #48
    Supes/WW <3 OpticDreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    You refused to cooperate with a legal sanction and then you shot at the cops.
    I never saw Cap give Cyke a warrant.
    Interesting Fact: Cyclops runs the X-Office.

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNOP View Post
    The molestation of M'Kraan Crystal and it's subsequent repair happened well after Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force became one.
    But it was stated by Death that the Phoenix was looking for an host to fix the Crystal, heard Jean's and was attracted because it saw "a kindred spirit".

  5. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    but she didn't claim the Dark Phoenix made her do it,
    That's not what I said. You seems to imply that hosting the PF is easy and don't affect its host. Obviously Rachel was affected.

    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    Objection your honor, unless defense can prove her statements she is just drawing her own conclusions in favor of the defendant.
    The WHR isn't part of the universe. White Phoenix, and the rest of the corps, was shown as being outside of our universe.

    (And you can't prove that the Corps exist. That it isn't just an hallucination in the feverish mind of one author that was trying to meet his deadline while under the influence of illicite substences )

  6. #51
    Junior Member antiochene's Avatar
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    Actually this all raises an interesting point. Which continuity is this trial being held in? Old continuity, where the past actions of the Phoenix are relevant, or "new" continuity where the Phoenix is cosmic cocaine and no previous Phoenix stories apart from the DPS (where the Phoenix "killed" Jean) and possibly some period where Rachel may have gained some sort of knowledge re: the Phoenix (but let's not call her a successful host or consult her for her opinion, of course) exist?

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    But it was stated by Death that the Phoenix was looking for an host to fix the Crystal, heard Jean's and was attracted because it saw "a kindred spirit".
    First, I must apologize because I was detracted as well as interrupted by neighbors and failed to post the right pic to support my thoughts... And, just where did you read that "the Phoenix was looking for an host to fix the Crystal, heard Jean's and was attracted because it saw "a kindred spirit", when the M'Kraan Crystal hadn't been damaged until after Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force bonded?

    Please, reread the point(s) I intended to originally share
    Last edited by ZNOP; 06-01-2015 at 02:50 PM.

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by antiochene View Post
    Actually this all raises an interesting point. Which continuity is this trial being held in? Old continuity, where the past actions of the Phoenix are relevant, or "new" continuity where the Phoenix is cosmic cocaine and no previous Phoenix stories apart from the DPS (where the Phoenix "killed" Jean) and possibly some period where Rachel may have gained some sort of knowledge re: the Phoenix (but let's not call her a successful host or consult her for her opinion, of course) exist?
    Hmm, when I first posted my intent was to look at the consequences of the original Dark Phoenix Saga.

    It doesn't apply to "Jean in the cocoon" because Phoenix was another person (and because the authors choosed that story to totaly disconnect Jean from what Dark Phoenix did)

    It also doesn't apply to "Jean is possessed by the Phoenix" because, in that case, the answer is obvious. Note that "Jean is possessed" was the original story. The Shi'ar were supposed to realize that Jean and Phoenix were two different things, pardon her for what she did while possessed and separate her from the Phoenix which would also have removed her power. Then, Scott would have retired to live with Jean. (It was also planned that later Magneto would give back her power to Jean and she would become a vilain, at least for some time)

    The end of the DFS was changed, not because they didn't wanted Jean to be possessed anymore. But because the authors didn't made it clear enough and because the editor didn't believed that the readers would accept it and accept that Jean only lose her powers after what Dark Phoenix did.

    I find it interesting to compare how the editor expected that the readers would "perceive" the actions of Phoenix/Dark Phoenix to what the legal system would says on this case. The editor choosed this ending, compared to the planned one, not because Phoenix deserved to die for her actions. But because he didn't expected the readers to understand that she didn't deserved to die.

    Naturaly, it doesn't change the fact that the story is a lot better because they changed the ending.

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNOP View Post
    And, just where did you read that "the Phoenix was looking for an host to fix the Crystal, heard Jean's and was attracted because it saw "a kindred spirit", when the M'Kraan Crystal hadn't been damaged until after Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force bonded?
    No: Jean became phoenix in UXM #101. In UXM #105, the X-Men and her left Earth, with Lilandra to go stop her brother (and fix the Crystal).
    Lilandra was already on her way to earth before that. She just didn't expected to find Phoenix.

    As for the discussion with Death, it's in the Classic X-Men #43. Death explains that nothing was an accident. That its not a coincidence if, when the Crystal would need to be fixed, the Phoenix would have a host/avatar to do it:


  10. #55
    Protect the weak. Darth Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    Eh, while California has adopted stand-your-ground-laws, wasn't Utopia mostly...not apart of the US? (sorry, need some clarification here)
    Fine than SHIELD and Avengers invaded the sovern Nation of Utopia/Atlantis and they defended themselves.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member Grey's Avatar
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    Some people don't seem to understand the difference between court of law (facts and rules) vs opinions/interpretations (emotional impact, drawing conclusions based on assumptions, etc).

    But that is fairly common. I'm impressed by the number of people in the thread who do understand the difference. You go glen coco!

  12. #57
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    So...what I basically got out of this is that Emma getting arrested and locked up was a long-time coming even before all she did with the P5 and in spite of all the good she did with the X-Men to try and redeem herself. Well, her and Shaw (where is he now again?).

    I hate to bring this up in an X-Books thread, because I know it's a touchy subject, but could the same legal precedent that we're using for Jean also apply to Scarlet Witch and M-Day, in that external influences led and caused her to act in such away against her own will resulting in the deaths and depowering of certain Mutants? And everything she did during Disassembled too.

  13. #58
    Nothing is safe TakoM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    Well, yes, in the case of the Phoenix Force (or Cosmic entity) then it's an Act of God: The PF destroy and create. That's its function in the working of the universe. You may as well blame a flood or an earthquake.
    Yeah but a flood or earthquake has no self-awareness~~.
    That is why I also say Galactus can't be called a force of nature. He has a choice like every self-aware being even if it means to commit suicide rather than killing billions of other self-aware beings.
    So far I can see Galactus has even more ways he can choose but we have another topic here.( I think because of this in the old FF movie Galactus was a cloud which never spoke)

    The Phoenix is a goddess "The mother of the universe" even the Living Tribunal can't touch her easily.(because she is impotent for the universe) With the old story than Jean and the Dark PF were 2 separate beings Jean would be 100% innocent and Emma and Mastermind would take a great deal of guilt with them about what DPF did.

    If it was Jean who was fused with the PF than she killed a lot sentient beings and wiped out a whole race in a mental breakdown. With that kind of guilt is hard to life as a human even when there is no court which charge you for it.

    The funny thing is in the end they became one so whose guilt we talking about?

    To AvX I didn't read it so I only knew what people write here and what is in the wikis.

    I think the Avengers were to fearful besides fear they had no reason to put their noses into the business of the X-Men. The problem on the other side was that the X-Men with the built of Utopia and their ideology became very isolationistic like a sect (which also was Xaviers fault in the beginning). Cyclops reaction was the result of constantly betrayer out of the own lines like Wolverine , Xavier, Storm .....

    I think really interesting is only how the story goes from the perspective of PF/Jean Grey-Summers not only the beginning but also the end including Schism.
    What I can add to this:
    1.) The PF torn into pieces by some Shi'ar after that I don't know how much self-awareness each piece had I don't think much-> PF running rampaging through the universe
    2.) What did Jean about it in the hot white room I mean also about M-Day in some way we can suspect it was her plan to fix evolution on earth by assign the PF a new target and mission.
    3.) Jean Grey School for higher learning? Take that for 5 minutes from the perspective form Jean in the hot white room. So you stayed against my plan, left my dear husband(which I borrowed to Emma)behind and now you making a school with my name on it? * LAUGH*

    I think we found the reason why authors/editor let her stay dead at all cost that amount of butt kicking would destroy the X-Men.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    No: Jean became phoenix in UXM #101. In UXM #105, the X-Men and her left Earth, with Lilandra to go stop her brother (and fix the Crystal).
    Lilandra was already on her way to earth before that. She just didn't expected to find Phoenix.

    As for the discussion with Death, it's in the Classic X-Men #43. Death explains that nothing was an accident. That its not a coincidence if, when the Crystal would need to be fixed, the Phoenix would have a host/avatar to do it:

    See Now, I'm going to have to ask... And, to whom (or what) do you think Death was addressing thorough all that "blah-blah"?
    Last edited by ZNOP; 06-01-2015 at 11:52 PM.

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNOP View Post
    See Now, I'm going to have to ask... To whom (or what) do you think Death was addressing throught all that "blah-blah" at the time?
    To the avatar/manifestation of the Phoenix as the same issue show the real Jean in the Cocoon. But maybe also, in a way, to Jean through the piece of her soul that was in Phoenix and that would be returned to her (first through Maddie) even if Death said she wouldn't remember this encounter or his words. (A lot later (in X-Men Forever), the "real" Jean consciousness is projected back into Phoenix and she has another conversation with Death which she will remember)

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