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  1. #91
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    We are told what Mastermind did in the DPS and that was show "Jean" her own sexual fantasies. He didn't make her "schizophrenic" and the thing about the Phoenix being the hosts emotion amplified to godhood rather then intellect has been around since Claremonts X-Men Companion where he mentions that. Also mentions that the star thing was the Phoenix trying to achieve the ultimate orgasm.

  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyMcDonald View Post
    Do we know for a fact that she has no notion of astronomy? Is it possible that, through the Phoenix Force, she might have more knowledge of the universe than she otherwise would have had?
    If she got information from the Phoenix Force, then it's a proof that the Phoenix Force is a separate entity from the human being called Jean...

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyMcDonald View Post
    This is true. And yet, Jean knew that it was possible for a solar analog star to support, in its planetary system, a populated Earth analog world. She came from one such world herself.
    That's speaking like someone from 2015 who has read comics and watched SF movies. Most people don't think about those matters.

    We go back to what I was saying in my early posts: Yes Dark Phoenix should have checked. No she didn't killed those people on purpose. Anyway, Jean/Phoenix had limited the PF powers to something managable by a human and she wouldn't have turned into Dark Phoenix if Emma and Mastermind hadn't broken her sanity.

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardorim View Post
    The title clearly says "Trial" in it thus it assumes the Phoenix is accused of something while Rachel proves the Phoenix is innocent all any and all accusations.
    The "trial" thing is not about the Phoenix Force. It's about it's host or avatar or possessed victim.

    As for suggesting me to read the topic title: That topic was created on a post I wrote. So, thank you, but I very much know what it is about.

  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    We are told what Mastermind did in the DPS and that was show "Jean" her own sexual fantasies. He didn't make her "schizophrenic"
    Mastermind, with the help of Emma telepatic device altered Phoenix perception of reality over several weeks/months. They made her think she was living another life to the point that she wasn't making the difference between the reality and the illustionary world they imposed on her. She wasn't even recognizing her friends.

    While under their influences, she behaved in a totaly different way than her normal personality. She even believed she was someone else. It also was shown, several time, that Phoenix real personality was still there and fighting against the Dark Phoenix persona.

    By all account, it's the signs of extreme schizophrenia (or possession).

  5. #95
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    And this is where I throw in the towel because this is bullshit.
    You won't accept anything anyone else has to say about Scott's character, nor his own admissions, nor his obvious plan, nor the events leading to the killing, nor the reasons why people opposed him, nor the legitimacy or legality of his actions. None of that is relevant in your opinion, except when they speak in your favor because you sure as hell are using them when they suit you.
    If you want to play defense and run the court have fun also playing the part of prosecutor.
    I'm out.

  6. #96
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    Mastermind, with the help of Emma telepatic device altered Phoenix perception of reality over several weeks/months. They made her think she was living another life to the point that she wasn't making the difference between the reality and the illustionary world they imposed on her. She wasn't even recognizing her friends.

    While under their influences, she behaved in a totaly different way than her normal personality. She even believed she was someone else. It also was shown, several time, that Phoenix real personality was still there and fighting against the Dark Phoenix persona.

    By all account, it's the signs of extreme schizophrenia (or possession).
    That's not schizophrenia.

    This is what schizophrenia is

    https://youtu.be/qb8wQjwVu2g

    What he showed her deepest darkest desires. That's not schizophrenia, nor was she not able to function like this:

    What happened to her is no different to what happened to the Phoenix 5. The Phoenix amplifies emotions. Jean for all purposes was lustful and wanted to achieve the cosmic orgasm.


  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    What happened to her is no different to what happened to the Phoenix 5. The Phoenix amplifies emotions. Jean for all purposes was lustful and wanted to achieve the cosmic orgasm.
    If that was the case, she would still recognize her friends and family. She would still know what is the real world and what is an illusion. She would still remember who she is instead of believing that she is someone else. There wouldn't be two totaly different personality fighting each others.

    It's also stated that Phoenix instinctively built psychic barriers to limit the PF power to something a human mind could handle. And that what Emma and Mastermind did broke those barriers.

  8. #98
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    If that was the case, she would still recognize her friends and family. She would still know what is the real world and what is an illusion. She would still remember who she is instead of believing that she is someone else. There wouldn't be two totaly different personality fighting each others.

    It's also stated that Phoenix instinctively built psychic barriers to limit the PF power to something a human mind could handle. And that what Emma and Mastermind did broke those barriers.
    She recognised her friends, she just had greater priorities at the time. She was searching for the ultimate cosmic orgasm. Where did it state that Mastermind and Emma broke those barriers??? Phoenix was already breaking those barriers where the more she used her powers the more addicted she became to them which is why she went in search of the high in the first place (the sun incident).



    It's the Phoenix that amplifies the emotion. Mastermind exposed her to her decadent emotions while when she was saving the Universe she was channelling a different emotion. That being love. She wasn't crazy, she was being motivated by lust rather then love.
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 06-02-2015 at 12:08 PM.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    She did recognise her friends? She just had greater priorities at the time. She was searching for the ultimate cosmic orgasm. Where did it state that Mastermind and Emma broke those barriers??? Phoenix was already breaking those barriers the more she used her powers the addicted to the high she became which is why she went in searchf for a bigger high (the sun incident).
    And that's why is a good idea that Teen Jean is Emma Frost's student, so she wont be that repressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    If that was the case, she would still recognize her friends and family. She would still know what is the real world and what is an illusion. She would still remember who she is instead of believing that she is someone else. There wouldn't be two totaly different personality fighting each others.

    It's also stated that Phoenix instinctively built psychic barriers to limit the PF power to something a human mind could handle. And that what Emma and Mastermind did broke those barriers.
    How long i know, those barriers were created by the Professor X, and Jean didnt know about them until much later; and that's the reason of Teen Jean's massive power boost.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 06-03-2015 at 05:16 PM.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    If that was the case, she would still recognize her friends and family. She would still know what is the real world and what is an illusion. She would still remember who she is instead of believing that she is someone else. There wouldn't be two totaly different personality fighting each others.

    It's also stated that Phoenix instinctively built psychic barriers to limit the PF power to something a human mind could handle. And that what Emma and Mastermind did broke those barriers.
    No they didn't Phoenix has already saved the universe and healed the M'kraan crystal. The barriers prevented the phoenix from feeling ego driven emotions. Once it got a taste of selfishness, hedonism it wanted to let go and embrace the human aspect of living carnally.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    Really? You mean that it's normal for Rachel to want to destroy the whole universe just to prevent the Beyonder from doing so himself? She was totaly sane when she got that idea?

    If I remember, when she went about to steal the X-Men's life force to increase her own power, she didn't looked exactly like herself.

    But if you want to believe otherwise, fine. That doesn't change anything: Nobody said that everyone would react to the same way when inflicted with the Phoenix Force. Rachel is the daughter of the Phoenix. Scott isn't. Why should they be affected in the same manner?
    She was absolutely sane when she had that idea that's why storm talked her out of doing it. Insane people wouldn't listen to their friends.

  12. #102

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    No mention of having sex with a star. /smirk

  13. #103
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Combined with Claremonts interview. It wasn't very subtle.




  14. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Combined with Claremonts interview. It wasn't very subtle.
    Except it doesn't prove in anyway that Dark Phoenix knew that she would destroy an inhabited planet. All it shows is that Phoenix wasn't herself anymore.

    And speaking of Claremont, you do know that he stated that Jean was possessed by Phoenix and she should have been forgiven and lived because it was not her actions? The author and editor killed her not because they believed she was guilty of what Phoenix did but because the editor believed that they hadn't been obvious enough about the possession and that the readers wouldn't accept that she just retire with Scott?

    You haven't contributed anything new or meaningfull to the orignal post.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narasinha View Post
    Except it doesn't prove in anyway that Dark Phoenix knew that she would destroy an inhabited planet. All it shows is that Phoenix wasn't herself anymore.

    And speaking of Claremont, you do know that he stated that Jean was possessed by Phoenix and she should have been forgiven and lived because it was not her actions? The author and editor killed her not because they believed she was guilty of what Phoenix did but because the editor believed that they hadn't been obvious enough about the possession and that the readers wouldn't accept that she just retire with Scott?

    You haven't contributed anything new or meaningfull to the orignal post.
    I wasn't arguing Phoenix's guilt, I was setting the record straight. You stated it was Mastermind that drove "Jean" schizo, it wasn't. Mastermind didn't make her schizo he exposed her to her darkest desires. And that negative emotion is what the Phoenix Force amplified.



    The editors believed there should be consequences either way, I don't believe whether she was possessed or not factored into their decision making in Phoenix an Untold story. They were going to kill her anyway because of the sheer death count. Claremonts idea was different he wanted an evolved race like the Sh'iar to be able to forgive such a heinous crime. I also provided the motivation (self gratification) driving her when she ate the star, as well as what she felt for those she killed (which was nothing).



    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 06-02-2015 at 01:05 PM.

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