The Trial of the Phoenix Force - The Legal Implications

[Narasinha]

The editors believed there should be consequences either way, I don't believe whether she was possessed or not factored into their decision making in Phoenix an Untold story. They were going to kill her anyway because of the sheer death count. Claremonts idea was different he wanted an evolved race like the Sh'iar to be able to forgive such a heinous crime.

Ok, now we are talking! My original post (which I didn't know MarvelMaster616 would make a thread of) was about showing the difference between what the editors "believed" the conclusion should be. Or what the "readers" would feel about what happened in opposition to what the law would says on the subject.

I also provided the motivation (self gratification) driving her when she ate the star, as well as what she felt for those she killed (which was nothing).

That's not the motivation that is stated in the comic by the narator (and several times): the first motivation was that she needed energy after the hyperspace jump. Sure, she enjoyed it but that's not why she first did it.

And it's just plain untrue that she didn't felt anything about those she killed: Dark Phoenix didn't know she killed them. As soon as Phoenix (or Jean if you prefer) learned what she did as Dark Phoenix, she was horrified. And that's why she feel guilty: If she didn't feel anything for those people, she wouldn't feel guilty.

And sure, the Jean who was in the cocoon still feel in part responsible because Phoenix was based on her. Because Phoenix came for her. And because of who she is. But also, as stated sevearl time, with or without her, the Phoenix would have come and would have found someone (last time it was stated was in the ToJG I think).

[remydat]

This is an interesting case to consider, but I think it would be a separate case entirely. It would not have any bearing on the case of whether he murdered Charles Xavier. The Avengers' status as a government authority is a bit murky. And Charles Xavier was not part of the Avengers. So I don't think this would apply.

The fact that the Avengers operate as an apparatus of the government is well established in the MU so I don't think it is murky at all. Further, it is relevant to the death of Xavier because you can't claim self defense when you are resisting the government. If you resist the authorities and in the process a civilian dies then you can be charged with their death. Further in this case, Xavier was working with the Avengers.

True to some extent, but he never asked for the power. It was forced into him because of Tony Stark. And again, intent does matter. He intended to use the Phoenix Force to save a dying race. And if he were called to a witness stand, he would probably testify that the dangers of the Phoenix Force can be mitigated and had been successfully in the past. It was only when someone caused great stress to the Phoenix Force that problems arose. In this instance, Xavier and the Avengers caused the stress, not him.

Whether he asked for the power is irrelevant. What is relevant is his actions while appearing to be sane. If someone deposits 1 million in my account in error and I go off and spend it then I can't claim I didn't ask for it when someone comes looking for it. His actions clearly show an individual that coveted the power of the PF. He was training an inexperienced teenager to wield it and when it passed on to him via means out of his control, his reaction was not to try and get rid of it or to try not to use it. His reaction was to use it for his own goals. You can't claim you didn't want something while happily going along your merry way in exploiting the very thing you claim you didn't want. And doing so when you know for a fact people will oppose you. Cyke knew full well the risks and the rewards and he gambled on the latter and so he can't now seek absolution from the former.

What he did with that power was not inherently a crime, nor does it affect the facts of the case in question. It would be a separate case entirely if what he and the Phoenix Five did warranted serious concern. Even if there were risks associated with such power, those risks did not manifest until the Phoenix Five were provoked and attacked.

No it was not inherently a crime but see above. He knew the risks. He knew he would be opposed. He knew the PF can spiral out of control when pressured. He knew all of this beforehand and he still decided to use the power. Thus, he owns the good and the bad that stem from it. That's the whole point of risk vs reward. You weigh the former against the latter and you make a decision. And once you do so, you don't just get let off the hook when it goes sideways.

I can't think of a good analogy for it. Say someone was on a drug that caused them to be violent and impulsive. However, they didn't take that drug willingly. Someone put it into their drink by mistake. Then, some friends decide they're going to be proactive and subdue him before he commits any crime. In doing so, they instigate a crime. In that sense, it's the friends that are the aggressors and not the person on the drug.

Say the person above is aware they were drugged against their will. If instead of going to the hospital and seeking aid, they decide to do roll with it and do whatever they want before the drug takes effect then they are responsible for their actions. Cyke knew he was drugged and instead of behaving like someone who is drugged against their will would have ie seeking help to get rid of it, he decided to revel in said drug. That is the problem. Cyke at no point acted like someone who thought they were drugged. He acted like someone who thought they have been given a gift and then when it started to fall apart, he or rather you now want to claim he was drugged. It's illogical.

And yet Cyclops still didn't attack them. If he attests that he knew of the Avengers concerns, that would only confirm that he was not the aggressor. He could've attacked first and stopped them before they organized an attack that led to Hope's abduction. But he didn't. The Avengers and Charles Xavier struck first. On top of this, he still didn't ask for the Phoenix Force. That's something else the Avengers caused when Tony Stark shot it with his big cosmic gun. And the extent to which Cyclops committed a crime while under the influence of the Phoenix Force is still debatable. None of his violent actions really manifested until after the Avengers attacked him.

By your own admission, the Avengers (agents of the government) attempted to stop someone who was drugged against his will. Again you argument contradicts itself. If the PF is like a drug then the Avengers have an obligation to stop said person drugged against his will before he loses control. That's not an attack. That's an intervention. So again, your problem is Cyke is not behaving like someone who thinks he has ingested a dangerous drug. He is acting like someone who freely accepts the power given to him and thinks anyone who opposes him is wrong. Simple question, if you believed you were drugged against your will, what would be your response? If you are honest, it would be to seek help. It would not be to use the drug for your own benefit. And if you did the latter then yes you are to blame for the consequences. You are treating his being drugged against his will like a get out of jail free card when it isn't. Cyke make clear decisions to refuse help when he appeared to be in his right mind.

I think 2nd Degree Murder would be a serious stretch and so would voluntary manslaughter. There's too much reasonable doubt that Cyclops was the main aggressor. A court can't take into account his thoughts. His actions speak louder and according to his actions, he did not commit this crime until he was provoked and attacked. If a prosecutor wanted to convict him, he or she would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was the aggressor and I think there's too much doubt in this case.

According to his actions, he did not seek help when he was drugged against his will when he had his faculties about him, knew what happened to him, and knew from his previous experiences with his wife that the PF could spiral out of control. He also knew that people would oppose his actions which could bring about such a spiral. Thus he had a duty to seek help and try to rid himself of the power while he was still in his right mind. The fact he did not was his CHOICE and he bears the consequences of that CHOICE.

So that is the fundamental issue here. You seem to think the minute something is done against someone's will, it absolves them of all responsibility. I disagree. Until such time that they lose their mind, they have an obligation to make an effort to remove the thing they claim they never wanted. If they refuse to do so and instead CHOOSE to use it for their own ends then they are now on the hook for taking that risk.

[remydat]

Sounds similar to what China tries these days ..... I wanted to take the same point which DP took but dismissed exactly because of this.
I think the main aggression was that they wanted to kidnap Hope , Cyclop's granddaughter in addition to trying to stop the return of the mutants but I must also say even Utopia wasn't a independent country legally they saw it as such and as their home.(yeah yeah I know like a sect) , so the Avengers brought in a lot of aggression based only on their fears.

I know after they were possessed it swapped and they were the evil thanks to the influence of the PF. With laws to grasp this completely is difficult because it would be including international laws, case studies, current events and so on enough for writing a PhD. Under common sense you would simply say this was war, 2 different political views clashing each other based like always on fear. There is a lot of books(and famous) out their how those 2 are the flip-sides of one coin.

A Government Agency seeking to detain someone who is a threat to national security or in this case global security is not kidnapping. It's unfortunate for Hope but the PF was coming for her and it was in fact eating planets along the way. You are basically asking the whole world to basically just sit there and gamble the fate of the planet on Cyke's theory. If you honestly think in real life that governments would just sit there waiting for this planet eating cosmic entity to come and claim a teenager while hoping and praying said teenager can control it then I think you don't know human nature.

Governments don't gamble billions of lives on one teenager being able to control what appeared to be an angry god.

[ZNOP]

The fact that the Avengers operate as an apparatus of the government is well established in the MU so I don't think it is murky at all. Further, it is relevant to the death of Xavier because you can't claim self defense when you are resisting the government. If you resist the authorities and in the process a civilian dies then you can be charged with their death. Further in this case, Xavier was working with the Avengers.



Whether he asked for the power is irrelevant. What is relevant is his actions while appearing to be sane. If someone deposits 1 million in my account in error and I go off and spend it then I can't claim I didn't ask for it when someone comes looking for it. His actions clearly show an individual that coveted the power of the PF. He was training an inexperienced teenager to wield it and when it passed on to him via means out of his control, his reaction was not to try and get rid of it or to try not to use it. His reaction was to use it for his own goals. You can't claim you didn't want something while happily going along your merry way in exploiting the very thing you claim you didn't want. And doing so when you know for a fact people will oppose you. Cyke knew full well the risks and the rewards and he gambled on the latter and so he can't now seek absolution from the former.



No it was not inherently a crime but see above. He knew the risks. He knew he would be opposed. He knew the PF can spiral out of control when pressured. He knew all of this beforehand and he still decided to use the power. Thus, he owns the good and the bad that stem from it. That's the whole point of risk vs reward. You weigh the former against the latter and you make a decision. And once you do so, you don't just get let off the hook when it goes sideways.



Say the person above is aware they were drugged against their will. If instead of going to the hospital and seeking aid, they decide to do roll with it and do whatever they want before the drug takes effect then they are responsible for their actions. Cyke knew he was drugged and instead of behaving like someone who is drugged against their will would have ie seeking help to get rid of it, he decided to revel in said drug. That is the problem. Cyke at no point acted like someone who thought they were drugged. He acted like someone who thought they have been given a gift and then when it started to fall apart, he or rather you now want to claim he was drugged. It's illogical.



By your own admission, the Avengers (agents of the government) attempted to stop someone who was drugged against his will. Again you argument contradicts itself. If the PF is like a drug then the Avengers have an obligation to stop said person drugged against his will before he loses control. That's not an attack. That's an intervention. So again, your problem is Cyke is not behaving like someone who thinks he has ingested a dangerous drug. He is acting like someone who freely accepts the power given to him and thinks anyone who opposes him is wrong. Simple question, if you believed you were drugged against your will, what would be your response? If you are honest, it would be to seek help. It would not be to use the drug for your own benefit. And if you did the latter then yes you are to blame for the consequences. You are treating his being drugged against his will like a get out of jail free card when it isn't. Cyke make clear decisions to refuse help when he appeared to be in his right mind.



According to his actions, he did not seek help when he was drugged against his will when he had his faculties about him, knew what happened to him, and knew from his previous experiences with his wife that the PF could spiral out of control. He also knew that people would oppose his actions which could bring about such a spiral. Thus he had a duty to seek help and try to rid himself of the power while he was still in his right mind. The fact he did not was his CHOICE and he bears the consequences of that CHOICE.

So that is the fundamental issue here. You seem to think the minute something is done against someone's will, it absolves them of all responsibility. I disagree. Until such time that they lose their mind, they have an obligation to make an effort to remove the thing they claim they never wanted. If they refuse to do so and instead CHOOSE to use it for their own ends then they are now on the hook for taking that risk.

[dragonmp93]

A Government Agency seeking to detain someone who is a threat to national security or in this case global security is not kidnapping. It's unfortunate for Hope but the PF was coming for her and it was in fact eating planets along the way. You are basically asking the whole world to basically just sit there and gamble the fate of the planet on Cyke's theory. If you honestly think in real life that governments would just sit there waiting for this planet eating cosmic entity to come and claim a teenager while hoping and praying said teenager can control it then I think you don't know human nature.

Governments don't gamble billions of lives on one teenager being able to control what appeared to be an angry god.

Well, in Real Life, the government would have send a predator instead and be done with it.

[OpticDreams]

I blame Tony Stark for everything.

[dragonmp93]

The fact that the Avengers operate as an apparatus of the government is well established in the MU so I don't think it is murky at all. Further, it is relevant to the death of Xavier because you can't claim self defense when you are resisting the government. If you resist the authorities and in the process a civilian dies then you can be charged with their death. Further in this case, Xavier was working with the Avengers.



Whether he asked for the power is irrelevant. What is relevant is his actions while appearing to be sane. If someone deposits 1 million in my account in error and I go off and spend it then I can't claim I didn't ask for it when someone comes looking for it. His actions clearly show an individual that coveted the power of the PF. He was training an inexperienced teenager to wield it and when it passed on to him via means out of his control, his reaction was not to try and get rid of it or to try not to use it. His reaction was to use it for his own goals. You can't claim you didn't want something while happily going along your merry way in exploiting the very thing you claim you didn't want. And doing so when you know for a fact people will oppose you. Cyke knew full well the risks and the rewards and he gambled on the latter and so he can't now seek absolution from the former.



No it was not inherently a crime but see above. He knew the risks. He knew he would be opposed. He knew the PF can spiral out of control when pressured. He knew all of this beforehand and he still decided to use the power. Thus, he owns the good and the bad that stem from it. That's the whole point of risk vs reward. You weigh the former against the latter and you make a decision. And once you do so, you don't just get let off the hook when it goes sideways.



Say the person above is aware they were drugged against their will. If instead of going to the hospital and seeking aid, they decide to do roll with it and do whatever they want before the drug takes effect then they are responsible for their actions. Cyke knew he was drugged and instead of behaving like someone who is drugged against their will would have ie seeking help to get rid of it, he decided to revel in said drug. That is the problem. Cyke at no point acted like someone who thought they were drugged. He acted like someone who thought they have been given a gift and then when it started to fall apart, he or rather you now want to claim he was drugged. It's illogical.



By your own admission, the Avengers (agents of the government) attempted to stop someone who was drugged against his will. Again you argument contradicts itself. If the PF is like a drug then the Avengers have an obligation to stop said person drugged against his will before he loses control. That's not an attack. That's an intervention. So again, your problem is Cyke is not behaving like someone who thinks he has ingested a dangerous drug. He is acting like someone who freely accepts the power given to him and thinks anyone who opposes him is wrong. Simple question, if you believed you were drugged against your will, what would be your response? If you are honest, it would be to seek help. It would not be to use the drug for your own benefit. And if you did the latter then yes you are to blame for the consequences. You are treating his being drugged against his will like a get out of jail free card when it isn't. Cyke make clear decisions to refuse help when he appeared to be in his right mind.



According to his actions, he did not seek help when he was drugged against his will when he had his faculties about him, knew what happened to him, and knew from his previous experiences with his wife that the PF could spiral out of control. He also knew that people would oppose his actions which could bring about such a spiral. Thus he had a duty to seek help and try to rid himself of the power while he was still in his right mind. The fact he did not was his CHOICE and he bears the consequences of that CHOICE.

So that is the fundamental issue here. You seem to think the minute something is done against someone's will, it absolves them of all responsibility. I disagree. Until such time that they lose their mind, they have an obligation to make an effort to remove the thing they claim they never wanted. If they refuse to do so and instead CHOOSE to use it for their own ends then they are now on the hook for taking that risk.

Well, someone should said that to the Scarlet Witch.

And i have two things to say:

1. First, that as we learned in Avengers: X-sanction, Cyclops knew what was the risk of Hope becoming the host of the Phoenix, but he also knew what would be the consequence of listening and obeying the Avengers' orders, so he wasnt gambling, he simply picked the option that would get less people killed; or what would have you chosen between Option 1: listening to the Avengers, 100% chance of total annihilation, or Option 2: letting the Phoenix take Hope, 50% chance of total annihilation.

2. Second, as we saw in AvX:Consequences, if Cyclops had accessed to get some "help", do you really think that the Avengers wouldnt had sent him to that jail to almost die at the hand of a band of bigots while the guard looked in the other way if he had surrendered himself before the things got out of hand ?.

[Cmbmool]

Well, someone should said that to the Scarlet Witch.

And i have two things to say:

1. First, that as we learned in Avengers: X-sanction, Cyclops knew what was the risk of Hope becoming the host of the Phoenix, but he also knew what would be the consequence of listening and obeying the Avengers' orders, so he wasnt gambling, he simply picked the option that would get less people killed; or what would have you chosen between Option 1: listening to the Avengers, 100% chance of total annihilation, or Option 2: letting the Phoenix take Hope, 50% chance of total annihilation.

2. Second, as we saw in AvX:Consequences, if Cyclops had accessed to get some "help", do you really think that the Avengers wouldnt had sent him to that jail to almost die at the hand of a band of bigots while the guard looked in the other way if he had surrendered himself before the things got out of hand ?.

Yet neither Scott nor Cable factored in the Scarlet Witch and her powers when it came to restore mutants. So that tells me that their "vision" was wrong a bit.

[AJpyro]

Yet neither Scott nor Cable factored in the Scarlet Witch and her powers when it came to restore mutants. So that tells me that their "vision" was wrong a bit.

Well until Wanda showed up, who exactly thought her powers would do anything/help fix the problem she was involved in? So not exactly wrong but having like, 50-75% of the complete picture?

[dragonmp93]

Yet neither Scott nor Cable factored in the Scarlet Witch and her powers when it came to restore mutants. So that tells me that their "vision" was wrong a bit.

Well, of course, because when Cyclops decided to not listen to the Avengers, he created a different timeline from what Cable saw; after all, the only reason anyone found about that property of her powers is because her attacks were the only ones that P5!Cyclops felt.

Well until Wanda showed up, who exactly thought her powers would do anything/help fix the problem she was involved in? So not exactly wrong but having like, 50-75% of the complete picture?

Well, i would say that they had at least the 75% of the picture.

And besides, the only reason that the Avengers ended up with her is because MODOK decided to attack the White House, and she was in the área, unknowingly along with Captain Marvel and Spider-woman; do you imagine if the one in the área would have been Storm and Wolverine or Vision and Hawkeye ?.

[remydat]

Well, someone should said that to the Scarlet Witch.

And i have two things to say:

1. First, that as we learned in Avengers: X-sanction, Cyclops knew what was the risk of Hope becoming the host of the Phoenix, but he also knew what would be the consequence of listening and obeying the Avengers' orders, so he wasnt gambling, he simply picked the option that would get less people killed; or what would have you chosen between Option 1: listening to the Avengers, 100% chance of total annihilation, or Option 2: letting the Phoenix take Hope, 50% chance of total annihilation.

2. Second, as we saw in AvX:Consequences, if Cyclops had accessed to get some "help", do you really think that the Avengers wouldnt had sent him to that jail to almost die at the hand of a band of bigots while the guard looked in the other way if he had surrendered himself before the things got out of hand ?.

The Scarlett Witch is culpable for her actions too because prior to her alleged insanity, she actively sought the power that drove her insane because she wanted to restore he dead kids. She did so knowing full well the danger unpredictable of chaos magic.

And it was a gamble because Cable's knowledge of the future is imperfect. We know it is imperfect because he didn't tell Cyke about anything that ended up happening in this story beyond saying they needed to oppose the Avengers. So Scott is assuming Cable is right without taking any measures to verify his story. And the reality is without the Avengers intervention, the world would have been screwed because Hope was not ready to assume the power of the PF and the delay of her receiving it that was caused by the conflict is what allowed her to become ready. Relying on information from a time traveler is inherently problematic because said time traveler doesn't even know which universe they are from. We know the 616 universe because we are external readers. Cable and Bishop don't really have any mechanism to confirm that any future they see or are from is in fact the 616 future and we already saw with Bishop the issues that arise when you just assume that because something happened in your future, you should reach in the present of 616.

It was a further gamble because once the power passed to him, Cyke had to decide what to do with it and again, nothing Cable said to him prepared him for what actually happened. The whole time he was going on and on about how Hope was the savior and then when the power came to him, suddenly she was no longer the savior and it fell to him and the P5? It was a complete 180 from everything he had said up to that point.

If Cyke had worked with the Avengers then there would be no reason for him to be sent to jail. He was sent to jail for what he did as a member of the P5. If we assume that upon receiving the power, he said, "This is all wrong, Hope is the one that is suppose to receive the power so let's work together to figure out how to get it out of me," then there would be no logical reason for him to be imprisoned.

[remydat]

Well, of course, because when Cyclops decided to not listen to the Avengers, he created a different timeline from what Cable saw; after all, the only reason anyone found about that property of her powers is because her attacks were the only ones that P5!Cyclops felt.

I want to harp on this point. You are making the assumption that simply because he was born in the 616 past that when he travels to the future, he is traveling to the 616 future. Given all the time traveling and all the times the alleged future of 616 has been altered, there is simply no guarantee that any future he sees is 616 at this point. For all we know, Cable viewed events on Earth 1771 and presumed it was Earth 616.

[Narasinha]

Unlikely. I don't recall the UN or the US explicitly acknowledging Utopia as a sovereign state and given it was in the San Francisco bay, it most certainly fell within the territorial waters of the US which extends approximately 200 miles around the coast provided it does not overlap with another country's territorial waters. You can't just drop a rock in a country's territorial waters and proclaim it to be sovereign land.

Sounds similar to what China tries these days .....

Oh! I read it as a description about what China is currently doing with those islands in the South China Sea to expand their territorial waters.

[Star_Jammer]

The Scarlett Witch is culpable for her actions too because prior to her alleged insanity, she actively sought the power that drove her insane because she wanted to restore he dead kids. She did so knowing full well the danger unpredictable of chaos magic.

Just to clarify here: it wasn't chaos magic.

It was magic that she was unfamiliar with; Doom had at least a working knowledge. Her possession was a surprise to them both. Neither of them understood the full ramifications (unless we go with the notion that Doom wanted her to be possessed), and we later see that 3 (instead of 2) magic capable people were able to control the Life Force.

[Username taken]

The Scarlett Witch is culpable for her actions too because prior to her alleged insanity, she actively sought the power that drove her insane because she wanted to restore he dead kids. She did so knowing full well the danger unpredictable of chaos magic.

And it was a gamble because Cable's knowledge of the future is imperfect. We know it is imperfect because he didn't tell Cyke about anything that ended up happening in this story beyond saying they needed to oppose the Avengers. So Scott is assuming Cable is right without taking any measures to verify his story. And the reality is without the Avengers intervention, the world would have been screwed because Hope was not ready to assume the power of the PF and the delay of her receiving it that was caused by the conflict is what allowed her to become ready. Relying on information from a time traveler is inherently problematic because said time traveler doesn't even know which universe they are from. We know the 616 universe because we are external readers. Cable and Bishop don't really have any mechanism to confirm that any future they see or are from is in fact the 616 future and we already saw with Bishop the issues that arise when you just assume that because something happened in your future, you should reach in the present of 616.

It was a further gamble because once the power passed to him, Cyke had to decide what to do with it and again, nothing Cable said to him prepared him for what actually happened. The whole time he was going on and on about how Hope was the savior and then when the power came to him, suddenly she was no longer the savior and it fell to him and the P5? It was a complete 180 from everything he had said up to that point.

If Cyke had worked with the Avengers then there would be no reason for him to be sent to jail. He was sent to jail for what he did as a member of the P5. If we assume that upon receiving the power, he said, "This is all wrong, Hope is the one that is suppose to receive the power so let's work together to figure out how to get it out of me," then there would be no logical reason for him to be imprisoned.

Wow.

Well said. Well said.