Help Me Understand Zola / Athena?

[Awonder]

Women (in this story, the amazons and Zola being the mother of Zeus) heading a society is considered a form of matriarchy. Also the story makes quite a deal out of Zeus having mothered Athena (adds into my vessel reading). I'm quite sure Zeus could be headed into a different direction thanks to a motherly influence. While he -in my mind- won't become a mother all of sudden, he will probably become a bit more "she". Ares tells it well (when telling Apollo) in WW#4 "Our fate. It's not up to us. It's always been mortal hands.". And the gods being a metaphor for power in this book, I think this plays into that.

I imagine Zola and Zeke living most of their time in a little -Virginia like- cottage on mt. Olympus. The amazons being the guard. The gods being kept in check. I'm btw. somewhat thinking Azzarello/Chiang was considering making her Diana's love. Perhaps not love interest, but something that would collide with Superman. Some say Orion, but I don't recognize it in the way Brian wrote the character. More so in Zola.

A king having a mother (and 10,000 nanny-bodyguards) does not make it a matriarchy. Every patriarch on the planet has had a mother. Zola, Hera, Athena, and the Amazons may help raise Zeke-Zeus into being a much better man; it's certainly a set-up conductive to it. But, Zeke-Zeus is still has the seat of power, it's still "his throne" (even though his not yet fit to rule).

But that did give me a fun thought. When Apollo took over, he remade Olympus. First Born did the same. Now that Zeke is in the high chair, I'm picturing Olympus as a giant play pen.

Remember when Athena got the throne in Rucka's run and it was hers? Because a tired old man stepping aside and letting the next generation inherit their right was seen as a good thing?

Good times.

So much better. I wish that Athena had been in this story.

[borntohula]

A king having a mother (and 10,000 nanny-bodyguards) does not make it a matriarchy. Every patriarch on the planet has had a mother. Zola, Hera, Athena, and the Amazons may help raise Zeke-Zeus into being a much better man; it's certainly a set-up conductive to it. But, Zeke-Zeus is still has the seat of power, it's still "his throne" (even though his not yet fit to rule).

I wrote a form of.

A fem. regent wont make it one, alone.

They're all Zekes mothers in a society where women rule. Btw a theme Azzarello often uses. That theres often a strong woman behind a man in power. In this story there are thousands haha.

But as said. The book uses the gods as a metaphor for power, not good. And power -it seems- often corrupts. While better, I don't think things will become good very soon. It'll take time.

[borntohula]

Yeah nothing says feminism like a misogynistic jackass using a bunch of women to avoid punishment for his wicked deeds.

imo he shouldnt be punished for what his father did. better nurture him.

[Agent Z]

imo he shouldnt be punished for what his father did. better nurture him.

Why the hell not? Its not like the story didn't have a problem with having others suffer for Zeus' mistakes. At least, the person being punished this time would have been the one responsible even if he allegedly doesn't remember.

[Silvanus]

Yeah nothing says feminism like a misogynistic jackass using a bunch of women to avoid punishment for his wicked deeds.

What "punishment" is he supposed to have been avoiding, anyway?

The revenge of the First Born? Turning himself into a defenseless infant, whom the First Born would want to kill as part of his path to power, was an odd way to avoid that "punishment"--especially considering the FB was fated not to return while Zeus was still around. Yes, Athena says Zeus knew the problem of the FB would have to be dealt with eventually--but there's no indication that there was anything imminent or urgent about this problem until Zeus disappeared. He built a solution to this problem into his master plan; but there's no reason to assume that the plan's primary motivation was to trigger this problem so that it could be solved.

So, then, what punishment? Do you mean his own guilt and regret? That could be considered a kind of self-inflicted punishment, and Athena alludes to the possibility that this was his motivation. But, if that's the kind of punishment you mean, then yes: I do think that a "misogynistic jackass" trying to relieve his conscience by placing himself in the custody of "a bunch of women" (including a daughter whom he now elevates to be his mother) sounds like a story with some strong feminist overtones.

[Agent Z]

What "punishment" is he supposed to have been avoiding, anyway?

The revenge of the First Born? Turning himself into a defenseless infant, whom the First Born would want to kill as part of his path to power, was an odd way to avoid that "punishment"--especially considering the FB was fated not to return while Zeus was still around. Yes, Athena says Zeus knew the problem of the FB would have to be dealt with eventually--but there's no indication that there was anything imminent or urgent about this problem until Zeus disappeared. He built a solution to this problem into his master plan; but there's no reason to assume that the plan's primary motivation was to trigger this problem so that it could be solved.

So, then, what punishment? Do you mean his own guilt and regret? That could be considered a kind of self-inflicted punishment, and Athena alludes to the possibility that this was his motivation. But, if that's the kind of punishment you mean, then yes: I do think that a "misogynistic jackass" trying to relieve his conscience by placing himself in the custody of "a bunch of women" (including a daughter whom he now elevates to be his mother) sounds like a story with some strong feminist overtones.

And yet it all worked out just fine. He's back to being on the throne and Hera is nothing more than babysitter. He was raised by women before, as were lots of misogynists, doesn't mean anything will be different. And no guilt and regret are not punishments. As anyone who's read WW Annual 1 will tell you.

[Silvanus]

And no guilt and regret are not punishments. As anyone who's read WW Annual 1 will tell you.

OK, then I'm still wondering: What punishment do you think he was trying to avoid? Do you see why I don't think it makes sense to assume that he was primarily trying to avoid the First Born's revenge (if that is what you were assuming)? I'm trying to understand your interpretation.

He was raised by women before, as were lots of misogynists, doesn't mean anything will be different.

I have no idea how or by whom the Zeus in this continuity was raised. He may have been raised by a goat, as he was in some of the myths. Regardless of how he was raised, though, he seems to think he needs a do-over, for which purpose he has surrendered himself into the custody of some very loving women.

You're right, of course, that being raised by women--or even being raised in love--is no guarantee of anything; but I didn't say that it was. I said that the idea of a repentant man surrendering himself to the custody of women who are going to try to raise him in love, to give him a chance at a fresh start, seems pretty consistent with feminism.

[Agent Z]

OK, then I'm still wondering: What punishment do you think he was trying to avoid? Do you see why I don't think it makes sense to assume that he was primarily trying to avoid the First Born's revenge (if that is what you were assuming)? I'm trying to understand your interpretation.



I have no idea how or by whom the Zeus in this continuity was raised. He may have been raised by a goat, as he was in some of the myths. Regardless of how he was raised, though, he seems to think he needs a do-over, for which purpose he has surrendered himself into the custody of some very loving women.

You're right, of course, that being raised by women--or even being raised in love--is no guarantee of anything; but I didn't say that it was. I said that the idea of a repentant man surrendering himself to the custody of women who are going to try to raise him in love, to give him a chance at a fresh start, seems pretty consistent with feminism.

Alright not punishments but apparently his guilt and regret were so great that instead of dealing with them and trying to make amends he decided to turn his daughter into an incubator and make her vulnerable as well. That's what I was trying to get across though I wouldn't put it past Zeus to have other motives as well. Let's face it Athena is not known for being objective when it comes to her father.

As for how he was raised if people can make claims about his conscience when we have little evidence beyond hearsay from his lap dog, sorry, daughter, I don't see why I can't do the same about his childhood.

[Silvanus]

Alright not punishments but apparently his guilt and regret were so great that instead of dealing with them and trying to make amends he decided to turn his daughter into an incubator and make her vulnerable as well.

That's what I was trying to get across though I wouldn't put it past Zeus to have other motives as well.

Sure. No one said Zeus was a good guy. One of the first things we learned about him was that he and his plan were "seriously messed up" (if I remember the oracles' wording correctly). He may have decided to reform, but, even if so, his reform hadn't happened yet; he was way too far gone to just immediately change by deciding to change. And it's not surprising that someone so manupulative would try to manipulate his way into a a fresh start.

But whether he was remorseful or bored (Athena's other explanation), or even if he had "other motives," it's apparent that the patriarch, for some reason, found that he needed to place himself in the custody of women. Sounds to me like there was something broken about this patriarch's life, and it could only be fixed through female influence. And women generously and compassionately provided what was needed, while also receiving new authority (as the infant-king's mother, and in Diana's case as god of war.) That seems pretty feminist to me.

Let's face it Athena is not known for being objective when it comes to her father.

She's "objective" enough to realize that Zeus might have repented, which implies that he might have had reason to repent. And ultimately, his motives don't matter to me as much as hers. And I think her motive was to try to make Zeus a better man and a better god by seeing that in his new life he is raised in love; I think this because she's evidently persuaded by Diana's argument that depriving Zeke of Zola's loving care would be such a bad thing that avoiding it is worth a sacrifice.

[borntohula]

Why the hell not? Its not like the story didn't have a problem with having others suffer for Zeus' mistakes. At least, the person being punished this time would have been the one responsible even if he allegedly doesn't remember.

Well, I still don't think Zeke should be punished for what his father did :P

[Awonder]

I wrote a form of.

A fem. regent wont make it one, alone.

They're all Zekes mothers in a society where women rule. Btw a theme Azzarello often uses. That theres often a strong woman behind a man in power. In this story there are thousands haha.

But as said. The book uses the gods as a metaphor for power, not good. And power -it seems- often corrupts. While better, I don't think things will become good very soon. It'll take time.

I agree that Azzarello uses the "strong woman behind a man in power" theme, and, at times, I think he uses it quite well. I particularly appreciate the addition of the First Born and how it adds so much context to Hera's bad behavior.

But, Olympus is not a matriarchy. There are certainly "feminist overtones," as Silvanus calls it, such as ending the run on a moment for moms. But, I think there could, and should, have been more. I don't think that restoring Zeus to the throne and having that save the day were good ideas.

OK, then I'm still wondering: What punishment do you think he was trying to avoid? Do you see why I don't think it makes sense to assume that he was primarily trying to avoid the First Born's revenge (if that is what you were assuming)? I'm trying to understand your interpretation.


I have no idea how or by whom the Zeus in this continuity was raised. He may have been raised by a goat, as he was in some of the myths. Regardless of how he was raised, though, he seems to think he needs a do-over, for which purpose he has surrendered himself into the custody of some very loving women.

You're right, of course, that being raised by women--or even being raised in love--is no guarantee of anything; but I didn't say that it was. I said that the idea of a repentant man surrendering himself to the custody of women who are going to try to raise him in love, to give him a chance at a fresh start, seems pretty consistent with feminism.

"Punishment" may not be the right word, but Zeus was certainly trying to avoid the First Born and all associated consequences of his actions. Zeus may know that he has to disappear, but why only tell one person about it? Like you said, it's very manipulative. He wants to retain his power and position on "his throne" while others have to deal with First Born being angry at what Zeus did to him. It's a horrible thing to throw your wife, kids, and family into, and he doesn't make real personal sacrifice - so that indicates he wasn't really all that repentant.

Second chances sound good, but I don't think it's a great idea to let others manipulate you into it the way Zeus is manipulating everyone. This bit would be so much better had Diana and Athena made their own changes to the plan (beyond retaining Zola) and had dad not ended up back on the throne. If he is going to get it back, make him earn it by making good on his second chance, not just have everyone assume it's "his throne" (an idea very inconsistent with feminism).

So, then, what punishment? Do you mean his own guilt and regret? That could be considered a kind of self-inflicted punishment, and Athena alludes to the possibility that this was his motivation. But, if that's the kind of punishment you mean, then yes: I do think that a "misogynistic jackass" trying to relieve his conscience by placing himself in the custody of "a bunch of women" (including a daughter whom he now elevates to be his mother) sounds like a story with some strong feminist overtones.

Just how detailed are you assuming Zeus plan was? He knows he is asking Athena to be his mother. He also seems to ask Hermes to watch over and protect them, and Hermes seems to have Diana on speed dial in case of emergency. But do you think Zeus planned to be raised by the Amazons?

I don't think having to grow up again is any sort of real punishment. What's a few years to an immortal? He trades his own end for the death of his family members - is that really self-inflicted punishment in your book? It's not in mine.

[Silvanus]

"Punishment" may not be the right word, but Zeus was certainly trying to avoid the First Born and all associated consequences of his actions.

How is that certain? The First Born, according to the Villains' Month issue, wasn't supposed to come back until Zeus left. So, as far as we know he was apparently safe from the First Born, at least for the foreseeable future--until he put his plan into effect. Athena does mention that the FB would have to be dealt with eventually; but that could have been eons away, most likely after Zeus departed into the ether or the underworld for some other reason.

So while the First Born may have been (along with Ares being worn out, Diana needing a role in the world, etc) one of many birds he swatted with with his plan as "one stone," so to speak; but there's no reason to think it was a primary motive for the plan. According to Athena, likely main motives are repentance and/or boredom.

But again, I'm less interested in his motivation than in the following: 1. the fact that, for whatever reason, the patrairch felt the need to submit to female guardianship; and 2. the fact that Diana and Athena apparently--based on Athena's decision to insure that Zola will be around to raise Zeke in love--see this as an opportunity to give Zeus a chance to reform, or for Zeke to get a fresh start.

Just how detailed are you assuming Zeus plan was? He knows he is asking Athena to be his mother. He also seems to ask Hermes to watch over and protect them, and Hermes seems to have Diana on speed dial in case of emergency. But do you think Zeus planned to be raised by the Amazons?

No--I was quoting Agent Z's phrase "bunch or women," but one or two or three women (Athena, Wonder Woman, Hera) would suffice for my argument that the patriarch found his life is broken and can't be healed without female guardianship.

I don't think having to grow up again is any sort of real punishment. What's a few years to an immortal? He trades his own end for the death of his family members - is that really self-inflicted punishment in your book? It's not in mine.

I didn't say it was punishment. I said that there was no apparent punishment on the horizon for him--unless you count guilt--even if he had not put the plan in effect, so I don't see why any reason to assume that his goal was to avoid punishment.

What I think he gets is not so much punishment (although I still can't help believing that being reduced to infancy, even for a short time, would be a humbling prospect for a king like Zeus) but an opportunity to be raised into a better person. It's not retributive justice, but it is utilitarian justice; if such a powerful god can be reformed, that will be best for everyone. I can understand wanting his reign to just end now, but it would have been awfully abrupt for the story to just have Olympian patriarchy end overnight. It looks to me like the gender power dynamics on Olympus would likely never be the same--though of course, there's no accounting for what future writers will do.

[Awonder]

The story ends abruptly anyway. And Diana had no problem forcing quick change on the sex-segregated female Amazons - but no concern for changing the even more problematic Olympus? There's nothing less "utilitarian" to have a female on the throne and having Zeus earn, not just manipulate, his way back into a second chance. As it is, it doesn't really work for me.

It feels like a metaphor for the comic industry - some feminist moments and overtones, but just can't give up having men the real center of power. Patriarchy must prevail! And that doesn't belong in WW.

[Silvanus]

The story ends abruptly anyway. And Diana had no problem forcing quick change on the sex-segregated female Amazons - but no concern for changing the even more problematic Olympus?

She had great concern for changing Olympus; that was her major argument to Athena for leaving Zola alive: "we've seen what happens when love is denied," so don't deny a mother's love to Zeke and don't blow this chance to make the Olympians and their worlds better by, among other things, making Zeus better. But I don't think she had much of an opportunity to suddenly end the patriarchy: it seemed, according to prophecies or rumors that everyone bought into, that only the Last Born could take the throne back from the FB; and once he'd done that, Diana wasn't going to kill Zeke and take his throne, or encourage her sister (how own "mother") to do so. You'll probably point out that the story could have given her an opportunity--but I don't think feminist stories have to make the end of patriarchy look easy. In what I've read, they often don't make it look that easy. Because it's not.