The Mission: Tilda Swinton, Marvel's Doctor Strange & Hollywood's Racebending Sorcery

[Post Monster]

So comic Mandarin is a "racist" Fu Manchu stereotype dressed up outdated Chinese garb. So what? Why couldn't MCU Mandarin be a modern Asian guy, a rival weapons inventor of Tony Stark's who is symbolic of an ascendant China? Why couldn't he be charming, physically fit, sexy, and worthy of one of those shirtless scenes that the MCU is so fond of putting its male actors in?

They didn't want to offend China due to Chinese funding that went into the movie, as well as the fact that China is now the #2 movie market in the world. But in that case, why not just emphasize that the Mandarin is seen as a traitor and a villain to the Chinese as well? That's a detail which is actually accurate to his comic book source material going back to the 1960s. His villainy could've been balanced out by the inclusion of substantial heroic Chinese characters. That would've gone over even better than the extraneous heart surgery scenes that were added to the Chinese edition of IM3.

But instead of elevating the Mandarin, they just removed his east Asian identity. Same with Dr. Yinsen in the first Iron Man film, and apparently with the Ancient One in the upcoming Dr. Strange movie.

They do this crap to supposedly walk the tight rope between not offending Asians and pandering to the prejudices of white America. Which is not only offensive if true, but stupid for business reasons. The domestic American box office is now a MINORITY share of the total worldwide box office. Around one-third and shrinking. Gone are the days when US grosses were all that mattered. There are far more Asians in this world than racist white people who can't bear to see an Asian in one of their movies (not that I even believe that the US population is that ignorant).

It says a lot to me that even Agents of SHIELD, a show that is outwardly progressive, which stars two Asian American actresses, and has an Asian American woman as one of its showrunners, still hasn't found a way to fit in an Asian male character. It's not like there isn't an Asian SHIELD agent in the comics or anything...

100% agree.

And a modern Chinese Mandarin who is a businessman would be highly relevant and interesting to what's happening now. The Chinese government's imperialist tendencies aren't imaginary and more relevant than ever. More than some stupid military conspiracy.

[Agent Z]

While I generally agree with what your saying, I'd add white isn't a un-culture, but a tribal fusion of several different cultures (that spent a lot of time killing each other). It does have a culture attached to it's members just like all ethnic tribal groups do. The fact it appears default is because the group is the largest in the US. And I have yet to see a character race changed that didn't change the character due to the cultural differences. Only in the most shallow of stories that have no drama or character development would it really not matter, which is why the Ancient One needs to be an as close to Tibetan as possible.

And all this talk of stereotypes ignores Asian story tropes and stock characters that are little old men. Go read some Asian fables and you'll see like old magic men everywhere. It's not only a white concept, it's also a pan Asian concept.

The problem becomes when they keep going back to those stock characters instead of providing a variety of characters.

[Post Monster]

The problem becomes when they keep going back to those stock characters instead of providing a variety of characters.

If only we actually had some Asian men in comic movies to build up stereotypes; sadly, that would actually be progress at this point.

[t hedge coke]

100% agree.

And a modern Chinese Mandarin who is a businessman would be highly relevant and interesting to what's happening now. The Chinese government's imperialist tendencies aren't imaginary and more relevant than ever. More than some stupid military conspiracy.

Pretend we have an eye-roll smilie, and I just used it here.

For nothing else, it wouldn't have worked for the kind of story the filmmakers were telling, for the themes they were dealing with. A homeland attack on itself by that homeland's bosses and actors hiding behind racist facades, xenophobic bs, duty and do-gooding and righteousness and capitalism, that was relevant to the movie they made. So the villains they used were chosen and crafted to reflect that.

Your fantasies of imperial business China who'll... something... is less relevant to the movie they were making.

[Michael P]

Pretend we have an eye-roll smilie, and I just used it here.

For nothing else, it wouldn't have worked for the kind of story the filmmakers were telling, for the themes they were dealing with. A homeland attack on itself by that homeland's bosses and actors hiding behind racist facades, xenophobic bs, duty and do-gooding and righteousness and capitalism, that was relevant to the movie they made. So the villains they used were chosen and crafted to reflect that.

Your fantasies of imperial business China who'll... something... is less relevant to the movie they were making.

Pff. Who cares what the creators want? It's not like their job is to come up with ideas and execute them.

[Biff Pow!]

Maybe I am wrong, but I believe the issue of race when it comes to Asians being cast in movies is different than for Black actors and actresses. I find it mostly has to do with the political minefield which is East Asia. China, S. Korea, and Japan are all large markets for Hollywood movies, but if you show any favoritism to one, you run risk of angering the others. Case in point the new Terminator film has a Korean as a terminator, but it is being played down in Japan that he is even in it. They are all influential countries that Hollywood is vying for…and they all hate each other, especially lately. Actors and Actresses are considered culture exports of their countries, or lineages in the case sadly for lots of Asian American actors. Now why would Hollywood take a risk and cast someone for a franchise film that could cause backlash or potential boycott in these countries?

I agree that Asian politics play a part in it- I don't think we'll see Doctor Strange visiting Tibet.

[Geno]

I see the author's point but I feel like Marvel Studios is in a little bit of a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation. Yes, it's a shame an Asian actor isn't being considered for this role (assuming the assumption that she will play The Ancient One is true) but wouldn't that just be perpetuating the "Asian mystic" stereotype? Not as negative as other stereotypes, but a stereotype none-the-less. Trying to avoid this, Marvel Studios considers a white woman for the role, and now they're seen as "white-washing" the role.

I see you haven't been going through this thread. Some representation is better than no representation at all, and it's damn well better to have a Tibetan mystic be the master of Tibetan magic than a Caucasian. And let me put it this way - when is the last time you've seen a "wise old Asian mystic" in a Hollywood movie? Because I can't think of any since Big Trouble in Little China, and that was 3 decades ago. Hard to perpetuate a stereotype that barely exists.

And no, I don't think Asian politics play a part in these borderline racist decisions at all. If that were the case, they might as well introduce an ensemble of Asian super heroes of different nationalities. Put Shang-Chi, Amadeus Cho and Sunfire on the Avengers, make them equally participative and relevant, and you get the best of all worlds.

[t hedge coke]

I see you haven't been going through this thread. Some representation is better than no representation at all, and it's damn well better to have a Tibetan mystic be the master of Tibetan magic than a Caucasian. And let me put it this way - when is the last time you've seen a "wise old Asian mystic" in a Hollywood movie? Because I can't think of any since Big Trouble in Little China, and that was 3 decades ago. Hard to perpetuate a stereotype that barely exists.

And no, I don't think Asian politics play a part in these borderline racist decisions at all. If that were the case, they might as well introduce an ensemble of Asian super heroes of different nationalities. Put Shang-Chi, Amadeus Cho and Sunfire on the Avengers, make them equally participative and relevant, and you get the best of all worlds.

Four things:

a) They can't use Sunfire, Cho's mom just showed up, and Shang-Chi isn't much of a character when you can't draw him like Bruce Lee or ever mention his father or history.

b)There have been plenty of "magic (often bucktoothed and lispy) Asians" in Hollywood productions since Big Trouble in Little China's considerably less racist portrayal. Disney, itself, produced quite a few for movies and TV. Heck, I sincerely hope Rosalind Chao's turn in the last Freaky Friday remake, with it's comedy foreignness and the notion that every Chinese person is a magic sorcerer or something, was because of her lifelong love of Disney and not because she thought it was a wonderful role.

c) It's likely they're going to avoid Tibet entirely, as it continues to be a political hotbed and no matter what they do with Tibet, some large portion of the audience, globally, will be rolling its eyes and hoping the picture moves on.

d) I'm really, really hoping Wong is a strong character and has more to him than being the "friend" of his master, carrying the bags, making the tea, and only chiding him in that cheeky servile way that lets Strange know that of course he's the boss and his silly little Asian friend is like the dog that tugs on your pants leg to get you to go outside for a walk.

[JimRaynor55]

Why is past stereotyping being used as a reason to remove Asian characters? The handsome white hero is a stereotype. The pretty white love interest is a stereotype. The MCU is full of them.

The way you address stereotypes should be with good writing and added nuances. Tony Stark is rich wish fulfillment character, but he's also a diagnosed narcissist with nervous quirks and daddy issues, charismatically played by Robert Downey Jr. in the role of his career. Thor is almost a caricature of a violent musclebound jock, but he's redeemed because he's also charming, surprisingly feminist, and has an arc built around self reflection and personal growth. Steve Rogers could've been a boringly fearless All-American hero, but the movies made sure to show that he's also a sensitive overgrown virgin.

Pepper Potts was Tony's designated love interest, but was also an intelligent professional who's frequently exasperated with his bullshit. Problematic damsel in distress treatment aside, Jane Foster is supposed to be a great astrophysicist and an insanely determined workaholic. Peggy Carter, originally a thin and even mentally disturbed character in the comics, was greatly improved in the movies. In the MCU she is portrayed as a tough British woman in a US Army full of men. She bonds with Steve over their shared outsider status and defies the sexism of that era to become a legendary hero in her own right.

No one looked at these characters and thought that the only choices lay in race/gender bending or leaving them out completely. And while there was no way that the Avengers' Big Three heroes would go unused, Marvel Studios could have very well left Pepper Potts, Jane Foster, and Peggy Carter out of the movies. Instead, they embraced the stereotypical love interest role, and improved those characters so that they were no longer mere stereotypes.

Why isn't anyone looking at the Ancient One and saying, "Hey, maybe it's time we wrote a good Asian character already"? Turning him into a white woman is the last thing I would've considered doing. And while Tilda Swinton has won praise for her previous work, she's hardly a household name who would put butts in seats. Picking a popular and well renowned Asian actor would actually bring greater publicity in the fast growing Asian markets.

[PretenderNX01]

Heck, I sincerely hope Rosalind Chao's turn in the last Freaky Friday remake, with it's comedy foreignness and the notion that every Chinese person is a magic sorcerer or something, was because of her lifelong love of Disney and not because she thought it was a wonderful role.

I figured she needed the work, I felt bad for her. Maybe she liked that it was a family movie and wrote it off as a throw-back but I still felt bad. Like when I saw Gates McFadden doing banking commercials or whatever it was.

Also of note is that there never seems to be any uproar when an LGBTQIQ character is posted by a cisgender actor.

There was plenty of uproar for Dallas Buyer's Club. Maybe you missed it.

Yeah, it's more recent that people care but DBC did have controversy that with Lavern Cox getting more attention they still chose a cisgender male for the role of a female. At least TransAmerica chose a female to play a female but that hasn't stopped Eddie Redmayne from playing a transwoman in an upcoming, clearly Oscar-baiting movie.

There were some extended scenes set in China for Chinese audiences I think, yeah. It's probably a case of catering to different countries' audiences really.

It's not just catering to their audiences.
China is still pretty strict in allowing foreign movies in theaters in China but becoming more loose, so now western movies film scenes in China to claim they are Chinese co-productions.
http://io9.com/did-you-know-that-iro...chin-486189788

Although for what it's worth the special Chinese content got panned by Chinese audiences
http://kotaku.com/why-many-in-china-...sion-486840429

[ed2962]

Why is past stereotyping being used as a reason to remove Asian characters? The handsome white hero is a stereotype. The pretty white love interest is a stereotype. The MCU is full of them.

The way you address stereotypes should be with good writing and added nuances. Tony Stark is rich wish fulfillment character, but he's also a diagnosed narcissist with nervous quirks and daddy issues, charismatically played by Robert Downey Jr. in the role of his career. Thor is almost a caricature of a violent musclebound jock, but he's redeemed because he's also charming, surprisingly feminist, and has an arc built around self reflection and personal growth. Steve Rogers could've been a boringly fearless All-American hero, but the movies made sure to show that he's also a sensitive overgrown virgin.

Pepper Potts was Tony's designated love interest, but was also an intelligent professional who's frequently exasperated with his bullshit. Problematic damsel in distress treatment aside, Jane Foster is supposed to be a great astrophysicist and an insanely determined workaholic. Peggy Carter, originally a thin and even mentally disturbed character in the comics, was greatly improved in the movies. In the MCU she is portrayed as a tough British woman in a US Army full of men. She bonds with Steve over their shared outsider status and defies the sexism of that era to become a legendary hero in her own right.

No one looked at these characters and thought that the only choices lay in race/gender bending or leaving them out completely. And while there was no way that the Avengers' Big Three heroes would go unused, Marvel Studios could have very well left Pepper Potts, Jane Foster, and Peggy Carter out of the movies. Instead, they embraced the stereotypical love interest role, and improved those characters so that they were no longer mere stereotypes.

Why isn't anyone looking at the Ancient One and saying, "Hey, maybe it's time we wrote a good Asian character already"? Turning him into a white woman is the last thing I would've considered doing. And while Tilda Swinton has won praise for her previous work, she's hardly a household name who would put butts in seats. Picking a popular and well renowned Asian actor would actually bring greater publicity in the fast growing Asian markets.

Well, to be fair, most of the examples you gave might be tropes or cliches in fictions, but they aren't necessarily racist. When someone says something negative about white people they don't go, "Look them always being millionare inventors!" or "There they go again, acting like pretty love interests!" "I wish they'd stop being fearless heroes all the time!"

[Post Monster]

For nothing else, it wouldn't have worked for the kind of story the filmmakers were telling, for the themes they were dealing with. A homeland attack on itself by that homeland's bosses and actors hiding behind racist facades, xenophobic bs, duty and do-gooding and righteousness and capitalism, that was relevant to the movie they made. So the villains they used were chosen and crafted to reflect that.

Your fantasies of imperial business China who'll... something... is less relevant to the movie they were making.

It would have been smarter to have evil businessman Mandarin vs attempting to reform evil weapon-maker Ironman. Since both of them are cut from the same cloth (being rich, money-from-evil globalists who are convinced they're right).

[Kieran_Frost]

I always support the idea of "casting the best actor for the job"; race, gender, sexuality: it's acting, not being. Go with the best. The films have no obligation to comic cannon, and Tilda Swinton is AMAZING! So I'm happy with this news.

[JimRaynor55]

Thing is, there are plenty more of experienced actors from Asia. What makes Tilda Swinton the best person for the job over any of them? How many Asian actors did Marvel even give serious consideration to? Because the early rumors were that Morgan Freeman or Bill Nighy would be the Ancient One. The only Asian guy I even heard about in the rumors was Ken Watanabe, who coincidentally is one of the very few Asian actors that Hollywood keeps going back to when casting its scifi/superhero blockbusters.

Also, Marvel Studios has not restricted themselves to Oscar winners when casting their movies. How well an actor suits the specific role, or even how physically hot he or she is, is clearly given consideration. Chris Hemsworth was a nobody before Thor, but they still made him one of the pillars of their cinematic universe. A good choice too, since the Thor movies would've bombed if they just picked some middle aged guy with Oscar cred for the leading role.

[MsAngel]

This is a good article, but I find myself less conflicted on this issue after seeing such disappointed reactions from blogs and social media.

The practical nonexistence of Asian men in the MCU is just one of the many issues I have with the movieverse. Tilda Swinton's great, but I hate how it always get turned into an either/or between a person of color or a woman for a role. Maybe I could let this go if on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. they had Jimmy Woo or an original Asian male, but this is just downright intolerable at this point. I hope that the whole "best actor for the role" thing means they consider actors/actresses of all colors/ethnicity for pretty much every role in Captain Marvel/Inhumans. Fair is fair, after all.