The Mission: Tilda Swinton, Marvel's Doctor Strange & Hollywood's Racebending Sorcery

[JimRaynor55]

Hollywood and the American population have serious problems with Asians, and in particular Asian men.

I'm an Asian American guy who loved Iron Man 3. I'm no fan of the comic Mandarin and wasn't pissed off that they changed him in the movie. However, it does speak to an ongoing pattern of removing male Asian characters rather than putting in the effort to portray them in a good way.

So comic Mandarin is a "racist" Fu Manchu stereotype dressed up outdated Chinese garb. So what? Why couldn't MCU Mandarin be a modern Asian guy, a rival weapons inventor of Tony Stark's who is symbolic of an ascendant China? Why couldn't he be charming, physically fit, sexy, and worthy of one of those shirtless scenes that the MCU is so fond of putting its male actors in?

They didn't want to offend China due to Chinese funding that went into the movie, as well as the fact that China is now the #2 movie market in the world. But in that case, why not just emphasize that the Mandarin is seen as a traitor and a villain to the Chinese as well? That's a detail which is actually accurate to his comic book source material going back to the 1960s. His villainy could've been balanced out by the inclusion of substantial heroic Chinese characters. That would've gone over even better than the extraneous heart surgery scenes that were added to the Chinese edition of IM3.

But instead of elevating the Mandarin, they just removed his east Asian identity. Same with Dr. Yinsen in the first Iron Man film, and apparently with the Ancient One in the upcoming Dr. Strange movie.

They do this crap to supposedly walk the tight rope between not offending Asians and pandering to the prejudices of white America. Which is not only offensive if true, but stupid for business reasons. The domestic American box office is now a MINORITY share of the total worldwide box office. Around one-third and shrinking. Gone are the days when US grosses were all that mattered. There are far more Asians in this world than racist white people who can't bear to see an Asian in one of their movies (not that I even believe that the US population is that ignorant).

It says a lot to me that even Agents of SHIELD, a show that is outwardly progressive, which stars two Asian American actresses, and has an Asian American woman as one of its showrunners, still hasn't found a way to fit in an Asian male character. It's not like there isn't an Asian SHIELD agent in the comics or anything...

[America / Bucky / Russia]

I'm an Asian American guy who loved Iron Man 3. I'm no fan of the comic Mandarin and wasn't pissed off that they changed him in the movie. However, it does speak to an ongoing pattern of removing male Asian characters rather than putting in the effort to portray them in a good way.

So comic Mandarin is a "racist" Fu Manchu stereotype dressed up outdated Chinese garb. So what? Why couldn't MCU Mandarin be a modern Asian guy, a rival weapons inventor of Tony Stark's who is symbolic of an ascendant China? Why couldn't he be charming, physically fit, sexy, and worthy of one of those shirtless scenes that the MCU is so fond of putting its male actors in?

Matt Fraction's run did a pretty good contemporary Mandarin, presenting him as a businessman.

[Agent Z]

She'd be a fantastic fakeout. Hell, have Wong play up the manservant thing, until we find out partway through that he's the Ancient One. Really hammer in how conceited and petty Strange has become and let him grow from there.

So what Nolan did in Batman Begins?

[Jeff Brady]

Also of note is that there never seems to be any uproar when an LGBTQIQ character is posted by a cisgender actor.

There was plenty of uproar for Dallas Buyer's Club. Maybe you missed it.

[Agent Z]

Hollywood and the American population have serious problems with Asians, and in particular Asian men.

I'm an Asian American guy who loved Iron Man 3. I'm no fan of the comic Mandarin and wasn't pissed off that they changed him in the movie. However, it does speak to an ongoing pattern of removing male Asian characters rather than putting in the effort to portray them in a good way.

So comic Mandarin is a "racist" Fu Manchu stereotype dressed up outdated Chinese garb. So what? Why couldn't MCU Mandarin be a modern Asian guy, a rival weapons inventor of Tony Stark's who is symbolic of an ascendant China? Why couldn't he be charming, physically fit, sexy, and worthy of one of those shirtless scenes that the MCU is so fond of putting its male actors in?

They didn't want to offend China due to Chinese funding that went into the movie, as well as the fact that China is now the #2 movie market in the world. But in that case, why not just emphasize that the Mandarin is seen as a traitor and a villain to the Chinese as well? That's a detail which is actually accurate to his comic book source material going back to the 1960s. His villainy could've been balanced out by the inclusion of substantial heroic Chinese characters. That would've gone over even better than the extraneous heart surgery scenes that were added to the Chinese edition of IM3.

But instead of elevating the Mandarin, they just removed his east Asian identity. Same with Dr. Yinsen in the first Iron Man film, and apparently with the Ancient One in the upcoming Dr. Strange movie.

They do this crap to supposedly walk the tight rope between not offending Asians and pandering to the prejudices of white America. Which is not only offensive if true, but stupid for business reasons. The domestic American box office is now a MINORITY share of the total worldwide box office. Around one-third and shrinking. Gone are the days when US grosses were all that mattered. There are far more Asians in this world than racist white people who can't bear to see an Asian in one of their movies (not that I even believe that the US population is that ignorant).

It says a lot to me that even Agents of SHIELD, a show that is outwardly progressive, which stars two Asian American actresses, and has an Asian American woman as one of its showrunners, still hasn't found a way to fit in an Asian male character. It's not like there isn't an Asian SHIELD agent in the comics or anything...

As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm more forgiving of the Mandarin in IM3 because they didn't merely change his race but used it as meta commentary on the type of "foreign devil" archetype that the comics Mandarin was based on. An Asian male Ancient One would be far easier to give some dignity to by comparison, I think.

I also mentioned before that another way the Dr. Strange movie could downplay the 'mighty whitey' implications of Strange is to show that he's not the first 'Sorcerer Supreme' and that he's not necessarily the best. Hell, the Asian Ancient One could even be retconned into being the first Sorceror Supreme.

[MichaelC]

So comic Mandarin is a "racist" Fu Manchu stereotype dressed up outdated Chinese garb. So what? Why couldn't MCU Mandarin be a modern Asian guy, a rival weapons inventor of Tony Stark's who is symbolic of an ascendant China? Why couldn't he be charming, physically fit, sexy, and worthy of one of those shirtless scenes that the MCU is so fond of putting its male actors in?

They didn't want to offend China due to Chinese funding that went into the movie, as well as the fact that China is now the #2 movie market in the world. But in that case, why not just emphasize that the Mandarin is seen as a traitor and a villain to the Chinese as well? That's a detail which is actually accurate to his comic book source material going back to the 1960s. His villainy could've been balanced out by the inclusion of substantial heroic Chinese characters. That would've gone over even better than the extraneous heart surgery scenes that were added to the Chinese edition of IM3.

But instead of elevating the Mandarin, they just removed his east Asian identity. Same with Dr. Yinsen in the first Iron Man film, and apparently with the Ancient One in the upcoming Dr. Strange movie.

Even old timey Mandarin was often portrayed as highly athletic:


And modern Mandarin continues that tradition:


So yeah, Mandarin is someone who would look right at home in shirtless scenes.

And yeah, Mandarin is an enemy of China. He was born there, but actually is descended from the British and Mongolian conquerors of China, and identifies specifically with Genghis Khan, a Mongolian conqueror of China who murdered millions of ethnic Chinese. The Mandarin is to China what a plantation-owner is to African-Americans.

[Michael P]

Even old timey Silver Age Mandarin was often portrayed as highly athletic:

This is not Silver Age art.

[AntoninoC]

I see the author's point but I feel like Marvel Studios is in a little bit of a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation. Yes, it's a shame an Asian actor isn't being considered for this role (assuming the assumption that she will play The Ancient One is true) but wouldn't that just be perpetuating the "Asian mystic" stereotype? Not as negative as other stereotypes, but a stereotype none-the-less. Trying to avoid this, Marvel Studios considers a white woman for the role, and now they're seen as "white-washing" the role.

I guess I'm just not seeing what choice they could make that will not result in some kind of backlash and accusations of not promoting enough diversity.

[7thangel]

how you avoid the stereotype is through writing, followed by the directing. i get that some not only opt for lazy stereotypes, hell, some thrive on it *cough*michael bay*cough*, but that's why you have good writers. it's not like we're not talking about whitewash jones here

[Mister Mets]

Let's not forget Ben Kingsley as the Mandarin, or Justin Chatwin as Goku.

Although I wish they could be forgotten.

Kingsley's Mandarin was excellent for that particular take on the character.

Maybe I am wrong, but I believe the issue of race when it comes to Asians being cast in movies is different than for Black actors and actresses. I find it mostly has to do with the political minefield which is East Asia. China, S. Korea, and Japan are all large markets for Hollywood movies, but if you show any favoritism to one, you run risk of angering the others. Case in point the new Terminator film has a Korean as a terminator, but it is being played down in Japan that he is even in it. They are all influential countries that Hollywood is vying for…and they all hate each other, especially lately. Actors and Actresses are considered culture exports of their countries, or lineages in the case sadly for lots of Asian American actors. Now why would Hollywood take a risk and cast someone for a franchise film that could cause backlash or potential boycott in these countries?

On the other hand as for Ras in Batman Begins it was all about timing. America was at war in the Middle East, in a bigger way than now, and using an Arab bad guy might have been seen as in bad taste. Same way just slightly different, that making the Mandarin Chinese, in Iron Man 3, might have been offensive to the second biggest Hollywood market. It is about being sometimes culturally sensitive and other times being sensitive to current events. This may explain why this casting took place for the Ancient One in Dr. Strange. The Chinese are, for lack of a better word, weird when it comes to Tibet and the people of Tibet. If the movie shows any hint of sympathy for Tibetans plight, the film will be banned or boycotted in China.

That being said I am not excusing ‘whitewashing’ (in fact I don’t like it) but I am seeing these as potential factors for its excessive use. Sometimes the situation is more complicated than social media makes it seem.

That is an interesting point. When asian actors are cast, there are often pieces about how it's wrong kind of Asian (Chinese rather than Japanese, etc.) which doesn't usually happen with white actors playing different nationalities.

Gong Li? Maggie Cheung? Michelle Yeoh? All just off the top of my head, and around the same age as Tilda Swinton.

None of those actresses have a reputation on that level. Swinton has an Oscar (and a mantle full of other awards) for Michael Clayton, and been nominated for other major industry awards for other peformances, in addition to all the critics groups nominations and awards. Many of these awards and nominations come within the last five years, with Swinton honored for her work in We Need to Talk About Kevin, Snowpiercer and Only Lovers Left Alive.

Gong Li might come closest, as the lead of several films that have been on best of lists (Ju Dou, Raise the Red Lantern, and Farewell My Concubine) although her last hit as far as Americans are concerned was Curse of the Golden Flower in 2006.

[Jeff Brady]

None of those actresses have a reputation on that level.

So what? What about their actual talent?

[bloodofthegods]

I see the author's point but I feel like Marvel Studios is in a little bit of a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation. Yes, it's a shame an Asian actor isn't being considered for this role (assuming the assumption that she will play The Ancient One is true) but wouldn't that just be perpetuating the "Asian mystic" stereotype? Not as negative as other stereotypes, but a stereotype none-the-less. Trying to avoid this, Marvel Studios considers a white woman for the role, and now they're seen as "white-washing" the role.

I guess I'm just not seeing what choice they could make that will not result in some kind of backlash and accusations of not promoting enough diversity.

They can't. At least not in the eyes of the internet.

[7thangel]

first things first, they haven't stated why they chose swinton. it's pure speculation that it's because they want to avoid a backlash.

given it's history on excluding and erasing AAPI, especially male AAPI, in casting and movie/tv roles, something that still hasn't gone away (like the current cameron crowe crap, aloha), it's obvious what would get more pushback. especially when good writing can solve the issues of the comic book.

using that as an excuse, which again is not confirmed, is wrongheaded. the whole damned if you, damned if you don't helps maintain the status quo.

[skyvolt2000]

So what? What about their actual talent?

Depending on what film it is and who is doing the casting-talent takes a backseat to who can get you attention.

That's why you see who might be playing Static.

That's why it takes forever to get the right actress to play Wonder Woman for years.

I never heard of this woman until now. Then again all her films are movies that I have no interest in seeing.

Her being a name, Oscar winner and Golden Globe winner is not going to make me see this film.

[Post Monster]

In comics, characters are not created with 'white' being part of their character. They just aren't.

White is not a choice that is made, it is the default setting. A character who is white is so because the creator didn't decide to change it.

While I generally agree with what your saying, I'd add white isn't a un-culture, but a tribal fusion of several different cultures (that spent a lot of time killing each other). It does have a culture attached to it's members just like all ethnic tribal groups do. The fact it appears default is because the group is the largest in the US. And I have yet to see a character race changed that didn't change the character due to the cultural differences. Only in the most shallow of stories that have no drama or character development would it really not matter, which is why the Ancient One needs to be an as close to Tibetan as possible.

And all this talk of stereotypes ignores Asian story tropes and stock characters that are little old men. Go read some Asian fables and you'll see little old magic men everywhere. It's not only a white concept, it's also a pan Asian concept.