My controversial thoughts on SUPERMAN:The Movie: It's time to let it go.

[JBatmanFan05]

Oh and I do like the same parts of SECRET ORIGIN that you did (mainly because of nostalgia). The first issue was well done (for the most part) and I liked the last issue for the most part. Everything in between just felt undercooked and lazy. I hated that version of Luthor's origin though and the Parasite stuff was laughable.

I'd own Secret Origin if the Luthor origin wasn't so utterly disappointing and terribly uninteresting and so Byrnesque. Really didn't expect that from Johns. Smallville's origin was such an earthquake of creative genius on Lex, a shockingly compelling mix of old & new Lex origins alike. Game of Thrones level brilliance as far as a nuanced complex character. I never realized how much potential Lex had as a character.

[manofsteel1979]

I'd own Secret Origin if the Luthor origin wasn't so utterly disappointing and terribly uninteresting and so Byrnesque. Really didn't expect that from Johns. Smallville's origin was such an earthquake of creative genius on Lex, a shockingly compelling mix of old & new Lex origins alike. Game of Thrones level brilliance as far as a nuanced complex character.

Agreed. SMALLVILLE has it's issues (one of them being overly Donner influenced later on),but that version of Lex's origin is my head canon for Lex.

We've never really have gotten an origin story for New 52 Lex (although apparently according to Johns JL run and Forever Evil, he still has roots in Smallville.) If they do,hopefully they take more from SMALLVILLE (but not necessarily ape it directly either) and Elliot Maggin and less from SO.

[Frontier]

Secret Origin had some awesome Lois scenes and lines and some great, iconic Superman moments. I can't not love it as a Superman origin story .

Though I have wanted to read Birthright...

[JBatmanFan05]

Agreed. SMALLVILLE has it's issues (one of them being overly Donner influenced later on),but that version of Lex's origin is my head canon for Lex.

We've never really have gotten an origin story for New 52 Lex (although apparently according to Johns JL run and Forever Evil, he still has roots in Smallville.) If they do,hopefully they take more from SMALLVILLE (but not necessarily ape it directly either) and Elliot Maggin and less from SO.

Yea, my head canon as well (the broad strokes, not the details like Lucas Luthor, etc). Such a wonderfully beautiful and operatic and tragic fall from a sensitive good-natured highly intelligent idealist to a monster who's evil seemed only magnified by all his years of goodness (he ended up worse than his own father (truly his father's son)...the father he ironically worked so hard to be better than).....undone by his insatiable curiosity and ambition and his secretive nature and his tragic past he couldn't escape. To beat his own father for the side of good, he had to employ his father's villainous tactics (ala Game of Thrones themes) and once he started down that slippery slope...he couldn't stop his gradual soul-forfeiting descent to his father's evil.

Yea, Smaville and Maggin (and some aspects of Bryne) are the tentpoles of realizing Lex's full dramatic potential as a modern villain.

[dumbduck]

I just realized that my joke could be offensive to fellow posters. I'm sorry if that piece of jackassery offended anyone.

It's just kind of scary that STM is held in such high regard that the OP's argument was completely lost or ignored in a few reactions of defensiveness of the movie's importance. I think these reactions were very good examples of the root of the problem.

From Byrne I liked businessman Luthor and Clark being, well, Clark. But he still has to acknowledge his roots, come to terms with them and accept himself as a whole, not deny them completely as he did Byrne's MOS. I also think that Luthor being from Smallville is too much.

[JBatmanFan05]

I also think that Luthor being from Smallville is too much.

I thought that until the show hit. Now, that aspect from Siegel himself I enjoy.

[dumbduck]

I thought that until the show hit. Now, that aspect from Siegel himself I enjoy.

I have to admit that Rosembaum almost made it work.

[Agent Z]

I thought that until the show hit. Now, that aspect from Siegel himself I enjoy.

Smallville's Lex wasn't from Smallville. He grew up in Metropolis.

[JBatmanFan05]

Smallville's Lex wasn't from Smallville. He grew up in Metropolis.

Yes, but the show had, during pre-Superman, Lex in Smallville. That was enough IMHO.

[Jim Kelly]

I actually see the OP's point. But I don't think it's the movie itself--it's really that image of Christopher Reeve--that makes it a delicate situation for WB and DC. I remember back when Clayton Moore travelled around the country as the Lone Ranger--and the rights owners stopped him from doing that. But a lot of folks myself inciuded felt like the Lone Ranger mattered less than the idea of Clayton Moore as the Lone Ranger. To a lot of people--making more Superman movies or selling more Superman comics is not that important--and they would rather keep the Christopher Reeve Superman because that feels more significant and valuable.

I wouldn't say that's nostalgia. What was past has been transformed into something else that continues to exist--and people don't want to lose that precious thing that is still present in their lives. If it was nostalgia, that would be different.

Putting that aspect of the movie aside, I think there has to be and should be continuity of a certain kind. As I wrote on another thread--

Superman on screen (and maybe on radio) has its own tradition that runs parallel to the comics tradition, but doesn't cross over with it. There are nods in STM to the George Reeve TV show and the Kirk Alyn serials.

Superman has existed for almost as long on radio and on screen as he ever existed in comics. And the memory of those earlier shows carries over as there's always some generational overlap. Whereas most in the audience will not get the references to comic books.

I'd add that the Fleischer SUPERMAN used the voices of Bud Collyer and Joan Alexander from the radio show. And again in the '60s, their voices were used on THE NEW ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN--and Jackson Beck was an announcer on all three.

The reason BATMAN (1989) did so well is that it could monopolize on the BATMAN (1966) audience. It didn't copy exactly from the earlier TV show, but there was enough similarity that it could attract an audience.

Some of this might be nosalgia, but not all of it. When BATMAN 232 (June '71) came out--featuring "Daughter of the Demon" by Denny O'Neil, Neal Adams and Dick Giordano--there were pages showing the origins of Batman and Robin. Those panels recalled the earlier origins from BATMAN in 1940. I don't think that's nostalgia--I recognized the reference, but I wasn't old enough to have a memory of the original comics. That was a really cool thing and excited a lot of fans. O'Neil and Adams were clearly doing new and different things with Batman, yet that callback made it feel legitimate.

These kinds of references in comics and movies serve as touchstones--but they also funciton as springboards for something completely new. It's like getting permission from the audience by first showing that this comes from a place connected to the past. When a comic or a movie doesn't show respect to the past through these kind of gestures, the audience can feel disrespected.

Such simple moments actually give the new team of talent much more freedom to try other things. They've doffed their hat to all the great talents of before and now they have the space to show what they can do in their own style.

EDIT: I just remembered this bit, which I should have thought of before--how SUPERMAN THE MOVIE begins. Even though it's a bit fake--it's a clear callback to the past but it immediately jumps ahead to something new and modern. It's like a visual representation of everything I was talking about. Showing respect for the past in order to do something totally new.

[Dr. Jay]

You do have to replace it with something better? And so far, I haven't seen anything better.

[dangleo61288]

Let it go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk

[Johnny Thunders!]

The Donner approach was so successful because it turned a kids comic into a movie that can be enjoyed by adults. Now we just take for granted the idea of adult super hero comic readers with adult themes. It seems too kid friendly in our age of Zombie tv.

[DochaDocha]

We've never really have gotten an origin story for New 52 Lex (although apparently according to Johns JL run and Forever Evil, he still has roots in Smallville.)

Sigh...

Why does it seem that every major thoroughfare goes through this supposed tiny town in mid-America?

[Jim Kelly]

Prior to SUPERMAN THE MOVIE, Smallville was close to Metropolis. The movie inspired Byrne to move Smallville to Kansas--or some place like that--very far away from Metropolis. Then SMALLVILLE the TV series made it necessary for Metropolis to move across the country to be close to Smallville again.

If Smallville is really this out of the way backwater town, then I guess it doesn't make much sense that people pass through it. But if it's a bedroom community of Metropolis then it's reasonable that people travelling to Metropolis would also tend to pass through Smallville.

When I flew to New York many years ago, my plane landed in Newark, NJ. The bus I took into Manhattan seemed to take me all over the state of New Jersey, before it finally got to Manhattan and then we were in traffic for another two hours before I ever got to the place where I was lodging.

Mythically, it makes sense to link Superman and Lex Luthor. Just watch UNBREAKABLE--this does a good job of explaining the reason.