Fallout 4

[Shawn Hopkins]

I actually came across a side quests today that rivals the better sidequests from New Vegas. Lots of ways to approach it, moral dilemmas, no clear cut right or wrong, discrete and significant endings and even a complete pacifist path where you can talk your way through. Oh, and someone asked me a science skill question, although there was no skill check, just a Fallout 3 reference.

If you look at a chart of Fallout 2 quests, you'll see that most of them at best have binary main paths, with a few having a middle path, so it really isn't much less complex. I think video games are like anything else, there's a lot of temptation to let nostalgia cloud your vision and decide that everything new sucks. But you miss out on letting yourself enjoy some great stuff that way.

I don't actually mind the radial dialogue tree, but if you're going to do it, go all in. Dragon Age Inquisition did it the best, I think. There are tons of options, branching paths, choices specific to your character's knowledge, alignments and background. And clear indications of your each choice's tone when that matters. Fallout 4's system feels like a stripped down version of that with some charisma checks. Still good, but a missed opportunity.

[Shawn Hopkins]

They really may as well just drop the whole pretense of being an RPG. Just do the game like the new Far Crys, keep the whole loot system, and have the perk system be a simple skill tree without "levels" being a part of it.

If your choices are basically coming down to yes, no, sarcastic, just go with first person cutscenes like Far Cry. Bethesda clearly wants to go all cinematic, and that would be far more cinematic, with far better presentation...and they could still have some yes no choices in there.

Well, they still have SPECIAL, and the levels modify those stats. The levels also gate the more devastating perks. The game works pretty hard to keep players from becoming too godlike too early, although in a completely open-world situation determined sequence-breakers will always find a way. Leveling is also important because there's no strict level scaling and it's not based entirely on skill. There are things in the wasteland that will literally rip your frigging head off if you attack them underleveled. Some times on higher difficulties it's best just to run.

The game has 7 stats and 70 basic perks each with multiple levels and special effects, plus various bonus perks. Most of the more popular skills and traits from past games have been retained as perks. It's not the deepest RPG system ever and it's definitely streamlined from Fallout 2 to, but it's significant enough that still feels like an RPG to this old stat juggler.

[simbob4000]

Well, they still have SPECIAL, and the levels modify those stats. The levels also gate the more devastating perks. The game works pretty hard to keep players from becoming too godlike too early, although in a completely open-world situation determined sequence-breakers will always find a way. Leveling is also important because there's no strict level scaling and it's not based entirely on skill. There are things in the wasteland that will literally rip your frigging head off if you attack them underleveled. Some times on higher difficulties it's best just to run.

The game has 7 stats and 70 basic perks each with multiple levels and special effects, plus various bonus perks. Most of the more popular skills and traits from past games have been retained as perks. It's not the deepest RPG system ever and it's definitely streamlined from Fallout 2 to, but it's significant enough that still feels like an RPG to this old stat juggler.

Only the SPECIAL system isn't really anything like it was in the past, gone seem to be the disadvantages of having low skills. Gone are things like the low intelligence character. Now you seem to be starting at average, and just moving up to awesome. The way they're doing it now, you could really just drop it altogether and fold what it does into perks.

[Carabas]

Only the SPECIAL system isn't really anything like it was in the past, gone seem to be the disadvantages of having low skills. Gone are things like the low intelligence character. Now you seem to be starting at average, and just moving up to awesome. The way they're doing it now, you could really just drop it altogether and fold what it does into perks.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing an INT 1 character and keeping your INT that low.
And that character will be very limited in what it can do in the game in terms of settlements and weapon mods, or even hacking computers.

Several of the really good Perks, essential ones even, fall under Intenlligence.

[simbob4000]

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing an INT 1 character and keeping your INT that low.
And that character will be very limited in what it can do in the game in terms of settlements and weapon mods, or even hacking computers.

Several of the really good Perks, essential ones even, fall under Intenlligence.

I didn't say you can't make a character with intelligence at one, I said one in Fallout 4 seems to now be average, and everything after that is going up. In the old games five was your average, going below five would start giving you disadvantages. A low intelligence character in the old games was an idiot with a different set of dialogue options, and this would totally change your interactions with npc's in the game world...Fallout 4 does not let you play a low intelligence character.

[Carabas]

I didn't say you can't make a character with intelligence at one, I said one in Fallout 4 seems to now be average, and everything after that is going up. In the old games five was your average, going below five would start giving you disadvantages. A low intelligence character in the old games was an idiot with a different set of dialogue options, and this would totally change your interactions with npc's in the game world...Fallout 4 does not let you play a low intelligence character.

Fallout 4 absolutely lets you play a low intelligence character.
It just does not do it in the exact same way as another game that came out almost 20 years ago and was much more text-based.

[simbob4000]

Fallout 4 absolutely lets you play a low intelligence character.
It just does not do it in the exact same way as another game that came out almost 20 years ago and was much more text-based.

So it doesn't.

[Carabas]

So it doesn't.

Does too.

FO3 and FO:NV let you play genius superscientist, ultra-charismatic characters that can hack any computer and power through any conversation just by letting the completely irrelevant SPECIAL stat at 1 and powerleveling the relevant skills up to whatever you needed them to be.
Having low SPECIAL stats actually has consequences this time.

[Shawn Hopkins]

I have some skills set below five and feel pretty severely disadvantaged. I have strength at 3, which means I never melee anything, ever, because I might as well be tickling a super mutant with a feather duster for the damage it does. All of the awesome melee weapons I've found have been sold, stored or given to followers. And I also can't carry that much so I have to keep going back to drop things off. And I don't use big guns because I don't have enough strength to train that perk so even the most badass minigun is essentially worthless to me.

The low intelligence run was a neat thing about the original Fallout games and New Vegas, but considering they'd have to voice two entire second "dumb" dialogue tracks to get it in this game, I can see why they might want to spend their resources elsewhere.

[simbob4000]

I have some skills set below five and feel pretty severely disadvantaged. I have strength at 3, which means I never melee anything, ever, because I might as well be tickling a super mutant with a feather duster for the damage it does. All of the awesome melee weapons I've found have been sold, stored or given to followers. And I also can't carry that much so I have to keep going back to drop things off. And I don't use big guns because I don't have enough strength to train that perk so even the most badass minigun is essentially worthless to me.

The low intelligence run was a neat thing about the original Fallout games and New Vegas, but considering they'd have to voice two entire second "dumb" dialogue tracks to get it in this game, I can see why they might want to spend their resources elsewhere.

Five is not the base anymore, one is the base now, and it just goes up. If you've got your strength at 3, then you can carry more than a character in the original games with 5, and I think it's at the same place as Fallout 3. If you've got your strength at three, I think that might put your melee higher than having it at five in the old games too. The way in which Fallout 4 does the SPECIAL system, they may as well just drop it altogether and fold in into the perks, while just moving perks into a skill tree system or something.

[Carabas]

Five is not the base anymore, one is the base now, and it just goes up. If you've got your strength at 3, then you can carry more than a character in the original games with 5, and I think it's at the same place as Fallout 3. If you've got your strength at three, I think that might put your melee higher than having it at five in the old games too. The way in which Fallout 4 does the SPECIAL system, they may as well just drop it altogether and fold in into the perks, while just moving perks into a skill tree system or something.

You keep ignoring how the bloody SPECIAL stats are far more imortant in FO4 than they were in FO3.

You may also have noticed that they have somewhat retooled the game engine since FO1. Not dissimilar to how pen&paper Dungeons & Dragons has been somewhat updated since the 70's. And IMO is a lot better now.

You just keep ranting on and on and on nd on and bloody on about how this game is not a carbon copy of bloody Fallout from 1997. YES. We know. We noticed. We don't mind.

Find another hill to die on. Start your own "I bloody HATE Not-Fallout 4" thread and please stop polluting this one.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Five is not the base anymore, one is the base now, and it just goes up. If you've got your strength at 3, then you can carry more than a character in the original games with 5, and I think it's at the same place as Fallout 3. If you've got your strength at three, I think that might put your melee higher than having it at five in the old games too. The way in which Fallout 4 does the SPECIAL system, they may as well just drop it altogether and fold in into the perks, while just moving perks into a skill tree system or something.

That feels like a "these go to 11" argument. It can't be objectively bigger, it's all based on the scale of the game. And I've played all of them, I can tell you that melee at three in Fallout 4 doesn't feel like an 8 in Fallout 1 or 2.

Anyway, Fallout 2 gives you five initial points in each Special stat and 5 bonus points, for a total of 33 customizable starting points (if you don't take gifted). Fallout 4 starts you at one but gives you 21 points and also lets you easily spend perks to increase each stat. So one is not the intended baseline stat unless you want to be nearly crippled in it, it's just a different way of distributing the initial points. In fact Fallout 4 pushes the player more toward specialization with lower initial points and by gating perks that would once have been skills with stats.

[simbob4000]

That feels like a "these go to 11" argument. It can't be objectively bigger, it's all based on the scale of the game. And I've played all of them, I can tell you that melee at three in Fallout 4 doesn't feel like an 8 in Fallout 1 or 2.

Anyway, Fallout 2 gives you five initial points in each Special stat and 5 bonus points, for a total of 33 customizable starting points (if you don't take gifted). Fallout 4 starts you at one but gives you 21 points and also lets you easily spend perks to increase each stat. So one is not the intended baseline stat unless you want to be nearly crippled in it, it's just a different way of distributing the initial points. In fact Fallout 4 pushes the player more toward specialization with lower initial points and by gating perks that would once have been skills with stats.

I didn't say it does feel like an eight. I'm saying, and I'm not sure how many times I need to say this, but I'm saying in Fallout 4 the average starts at one, you can't go below the average, and then it just goes up. Fallout 4 doesn't really push the player more toward specialization because perks also have level thresholds attached to them.

[simbob4000]

You keep ignoring how the bloody SPECIAL stats are far more imortant in FO4 than they were in FO3.

You may also have noticed that they have somewhat retooled the game engine since FO1. Not dissimilar to how pen&paper Dungeons & Dragons has been somewhat updated since the 70's. And IMO is a lot better now.

You just keep ranting on and on and on nd on and bloody on about how this game is not a carbon copy of bloody Fallout from 1997. YES. We know. We noticed. We don't mind.

Find another hill to die on. Start your own "I bloody HATE Not-Fallout 4" thread and please stop polluting this one.

They aren't more important here than before. They're actually so not important anymore that I've been saying they might as well drop it altogether. This isn't even a criticism of the game, it's just pointing out how completely pointless it is now, and if the goal it to just simplify everything, than they may as well just go all the way. Because there isn't anything they're doing in this new take on the SPECIAL system that they couldn't just do with only the perks in a skill tree.

This isn't a Fallout 4 cheerleading thread, although these last few post haven't been attacking the game in any way whatsoever, but if you would like to find a Fallout 4 cheerleading thread I'm sure you could find one on the Bethesda forums.

[TheInvisibleMan]

Silver Shroud quest was fun