Mark Waid's Flash

[Darth Kal-el]

Ok it's been forever since I read this story. What exactly did Cobalt Blue assert about Barry that's so offensive to Barry's character

[Rakzo]

Ok it's been forever since I read this story. What exactly did Cobalt Blue assert about Barry that's so offensive to Barry's character

Just at the beginning of the storyline when he mentioned that Barry became a superhero because he had dual identity issues due to the loss of his unknown twin.

Which goes against everything what the character is. It was pretty much Flash: Rebirth before Flash: Rebirth.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Well, it might as well be. It means that you adressed all the points you wanted to adress without leaving any plot-point or sub-plot unresolved.

Again, it's basic writing to create a satisfying read.

So, did the journalist read Rorschach's diary at the end of Watchmen?

No because Wally didn't get over it, he just forgot about it which is a sign that the writer also did.

Yeah, because confronting an idiot trough time really gives insight to what an idiot he is. There's more than enough in the story for anyone to realize how full of it CB is; and there wasn't any reason to believe him in the first place. Yeah, Wally got "shocked" by the evil twin brother for five minutes. Big deal. The very fact that it wasn't addressed just how little importance it had.

And readers shouldn't ignore it because it's another flaw in a story full of them.

Yes, they should; not they should ignore the other flaws, but Cobalt Blue's opinion on Barry was never more than an afterthought.

Chain Lightning had bad characterization, a weak antagonist, awkward pacing and many ideas that never came together but one of the worst things was its poor plannification for simply making the main character forget something that actually affected him without any development to justify it.

With everything but the bad characterization and the thing with Barry's personality, I agree. However, the thing you are so hung up with is exactly the thing that no one should care about; crazy villain does a crazy speech.

Saying that readers should "shake it off" means that they should accept bad writing and I'm sorry but I won't accept that.

Actually, no, it just means that stuff treated as being not important enough to address in story is probably not important.

[Rakzo]

So, did the journalist read Rorschach's diary at the end of Watchmen?

The difference being that was left on purpose.

And it's not something that affected the protagonist himself.

Yeah, because confronting an idiot trough time really gives insight to what an idiot he is. There's more than enough in the story for anyone to realize how full of it CB is; and there wasn't any reason to believe him in the first place. Yeah, Wally got "shocked" by the evil twin brother for five minutes. Big deal. The very fact that it wasn't addressed just how little importance it had.

Again, it wasn't adressed because even the writer forgot about it.

No mention whatsoever and it was important because it was presented as a plot-point at the beginning.

Yes, they should; not they should ignore the other flaws, but Cobalt Blue's opinion on Barry was never more than an afterthought.

Nope, accepting other flaws but ignoring such another clear one?

Double standards.

With everything but the bad characterization and the thing with Barry's personality, I agree. However, the thing you are so hung up with is exactly the thing that no one should care about; crazy villain does a crazy speech.

But when it's presented in a way that affects the main character it does affect the reader.

It needs to get a proper resolve.

Actually, no, it just means that stuff treated as being not important enough to address in story is probably not important.

... Which means it was forgotten.

[BohemiaDrinker]

No mention whatsoever and it was important because it was presented as a plot-point at the beginning.

Nope. It was presented as the motivation of a villain.

Who happened to not be that sane a person....

Nope, accepting other flaws but ignoring such another clear one?

Double standards.

It's only a flaw if you believe it. It was never presented as truth.

But when it's presented in a way that affects the main character it does affect the reader.

It needs to get a proper resolve.

It did. It was ignored because it was the ramblings of an insane idiot. There's no more "proper" than that.

[Rakzo]

Nope. It was presented as the motivation of a villain.

Who happened to not be that sane a person....

His motivation was to get power because he wasn't able to control his life.

That was all, pretty simplistic.

It's only a flaw if you believe it. It was never presented as truth.

It was a plot-point that never was adressed as false.

It should have been proclaimed as false.

It did. It was ignored because it was the ramblings of an insane idiot. There's no more "proper" than that.

Not really because again, Wally believe them.

And he was never proven wrong.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Not really because again, Wally believe them.

And he was never proven wrong.

This is Wally believieng, at the start of #144:



This is what Wally says about the guy at the end of #144:



So, it was resolved as a crazy person babbling before the arc even properly starts.

Unless you really need an expository baloon going "Oh, it turns out that Crazy guy was crazy, and his psychological diagnosis actually had no bearing in reality, on the account of him being crazy and not a psychologist! Geez, I can't believe I actually bought that for whole eight seconds!"

[Darth Kal-el]

I think Wally didn't want him to be Barry's brother, nothing to do with why Barry became the Flash

[Ilan Preskovsky]

Just to jump in quite late to the thread, I absolutely adore Waid's run on the Flash. Most especially from Born to Run through to the end of Race Through Time because after that it did get quite a bit more spotty but on the whole it's still easily one of my favourite superhero comics. More than that, it was pretty much Waid's Flash that got me hooked into comics and the DCU in general. I may have read a few issues of Superman and/ or Batman first but what really drew me in was the one-two punch of picking up a reprint of Showcase #4 and the Flash/ Aquaman issue of Waid's run (66, if I recall correctly) on the same trip to my local news agent. The sense of legacy and of a shared universe really appealed to me but, more than that, the way that Waid gave so much personality to Wally West and the way that he developed him so rapidly in his first year on the book pretty much made me a fan for life - of Waid, of the Flash and, of course, of the real Wally West.

And, yes, the fact that I read it at such an impressionable time obviously colours my way of looking at it but even if I see more storytelling flaws when I go back and re-read Waid's run on the Flash, it still holds up beautifully and remains one of the textbook examples of how to mix classic "goofy" superhero stories with more mature characterization and themes. It's not quite All Star Superman in this regard but it works a similar magic in its own way.

[Adset]

comixology had a New 52 sale not long after i started this thread. i picked up #1-40 on a whim, chalking it up to the flash high i was coming off of after re-reading waid's run.

oh, man. these were brutal. i don't know what the consensus on francis manapul and brian buccellato is, i enjoyed his art on his short legion run awhile back and i think their detective comics stuff has been alright, but even though the art was pretty i thought most of their flash run was unreadable and got worse as it concluded. that reverse flash arc was painful on many levels.

considering that i thought going in that the manapul/buccellato team was supposed to be somewhat acclaimed, i was surprised to find the jensen/venditti/booth stuff a little stronger. not miles ahead, but... an improvement. i wouldn't say i was hooked by the future flash/land of the speed force direction, but i really cringed over much of the manapul/buccellato stories and find i did so less when the new team came aboard. although this "barry being replaced by another barry while the real barry is off in the speed force" angle was done a lot better when it was wally west during the end of waid's run.

speaking of wally west, yikes.

brett booth draws iris west like a 10 year old boy and it really throws me off the story. also, brett booth showing anyone walking away is always hilarious. his flash is like i'm looking at an old school image comic. the dream of the 90s is alive but it's not in portland... it's in the flash.

really miss the supporting cast. i get why jay can't be around, but no jay/max/jesse/impulse is a huge loss to the tone of the series. i know i'm cherry-picking my fond memories of an older series (and a different flash) and projecting them onto the current status quo, but patty spivot (or whatever her name is), the occasional iris west cameo, and a bunch of faceless cop buddies at work does not make for the best supporting cast.

not having read the New 52 teen titans, kid flash's appearance during the manapul run was my first introduction to the New 52 bart. i, um... i'm not going to say anything. that was more disappointing than the current wally west.

i know this is a mostly whiny post with no real value, but these were my thoughts reading through the series. the highlight of the first 40 issues, imo, insomuch as there were any, was that stand-alone christos gage issue right after manapul/buccalleto left, and then the three issues buccalleto wrote by himself prior to the current team jumping aboard.

[Cowboy Ninja Viking]

I actually thought that manapul and buccelato had some good stuff but never recovered after #12 and the first annual. The Grood and new Reverse Flash stuff just didn't do it for me. Vendor to and Jensens run was only Okay to me. I would really like a new team for Flash.

[nightrider]

I think Mark Waid's flash was just meh.

[Lightning Rider]

Funny, I'm reading the Return of Barry Allen now, forgot how good of a story it was. Loved how Max was introduced and Jay kicks ass in it. Meanwhile Wally takes a huge leap towards finally assuming the mantle without any hang-ups. (Speaking of that, there's a scene elsewhere that he clowns Vandal Savage by fully tapping into his speed and being fully comfortable with being the Flash; anyone remember what that is from?)

[JackDaw]

I think Mark Waid's flash was just meh.

Based on my limited reading of it (I've read a few of the more celebrated arcs such as Return of Barry Allen and Terminal Velocity) I tend to agree. Those big development story arcs seemed curiously flat to me.

And standing back from the detail, I didn't like a couple of general aspects: the speed force (complete pseudo science waffle), and making the Flash more and more and more powerful. To point where writers more or less had to ignore his stated power level in most comics to allow conflict to last more than a micro-second.

Maybe its one of those runs you have to read right from start issue by issue to appreciate??

[BohemiaDrinker]

Funny, I'm reading the Return of Barry Allen now, forgot how good of a story it was. Loved how Max was introduced and Jay kicks ass in it. Meanwhile Wally takes a huge leap towards finally assuming the mantle without any hang-ups. (Speaking of that, there's a scene elsewhere that he clowns Vandal Savage by fully tapping into his speed and being fully comfortable with being the Flash; anyone remember what that is from?)

It's from Bill Loebs run. Flash #50, I believe (but I have to check ' cause I suck with numbers)