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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    I think Waid as so intent on make Wally distinct from Barry that he deliberately avoided using the classical Rogues (other than Zoom with a twist, making him, for that occasion, Wally's villain, rather than Barry's), prefering to invest on giving Wally his own Rogues, such as Savitar, Tarpit, the Folded Man, Chillbaine (the slew of them, rather than Captain Cold), Kobra (an established DC villain that he tried to make the Flash's), etc... I, for one, think that many of them had a lot of potential. He did seem to have a thing for James Jessie, the original Trickster, though.

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  2. #17
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Batson View Post
    Johns was pretty much the only writer in that Flash series to give focus to the villains.
    Yes, but too much focus. I liked what Johns did with Cold, but when I read the Flash, I want the story to focus on the Flash, not anyone else. One or two issues is okay, but not the majority of the run. Waid introduced Savitar and Christina and was able to weave them into the story without taking away from the Flash.
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  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    I think that was Waid's biggest weakness is that he went of his way to not use the Rouges. I don't know if had and actual dislike for the characters or just liked making up more and more Speed based bad guys, but he only ever really used Mirror Master out of all the Rogues. Waid is the one that killed all the Rogues to begin with in the Underworld Unleashed event.

  4. #19
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    The only problem I had with Waids run was that he focused so much on the Speed Force. It seemed like almost every story he wrote tied into it in some way after a while.
    It caught on with every Flash writer who has come and gone since. Ever since the Speed Force concept was first unveiled in 1994, it's permeated the majority of Flash stories. Waid's introduction of the Speed Force concept did for the FLASH franchise what Frank Miller's THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS did for the grim and gritty aspect of Batman in that franchise.

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  5. #20
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Honestly, one of my bigger issues with the current run is the sheer lack of The Rogues, and while the absence of Heat Wave and Cold make sense, I miss getting to see the rest.

    At least it seems like some of Waid's new villains were interesting and effective, compared to all the ones Venditti and Jensen have introduced.

  6. #21
    Always Rakzo
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    Uh boy, here we go again.

    To me, Waid's first Flash run is... okay. There is some good work in his stories and he deserves a lot of credit for creating the Speed Force.

    However, I always found the overall quality of his work pretty uneven. Some of the storylines were quite nice while others were simply decent and let's not even talk about his one-shots, crossovers and two or three-arc tales that were vastly forgettable. As a whole, it doesn't hold and I feel like it has become kinda dated in retrospective.

    However, those were not even my biggest complaints. His characterization of Barry Allen was simply off and made a whole generation believe that Barry was a boring guy with self-confidence problems (which any Flash fan who has read the early Silver and Bronze Age stories would tell it's simply wrong) but that served a reason and that was in favor of Wally, Waid made a huge deal in making Wally "The Greatest Flash Ever" by throwing such kind of line in almost every storyarc, it became pretty heavyhanded and it's even worse these days once that you re-read it. Not to mention that the antagonists were also a joke, mostly poor excuses to keep proving how great Wally was.

    But even that is not as bad as what would become the worst thing he has done in the Flash franchise: Chain Lightning.

    Sure, his second run in the series was offensively mediocre but that at least wasn't pure offensive. By introducing the villain Cobalt Blue who is actually the very cliche evil twin of Barry Allen, he not only created a terrible antagonist for the series but also created what Cobalt Blue called "Barry's dual identity problems" due that now Barry apparently became a superhero not because he loved his job but because he needed to adopt another identity due to the loss of his unknown twin.

    This wouldn't have been so bad if at least Waid would have negated such claim, he never did. He just left that up in the air and never bothered to even adress it again which makes me think that he either forgot about it or simply didn't care.

    That's not the only problem from that arc though. The story itself could have been a pretty inventive tale about the Flash mythos and history but unfortunately, Cobalt Blue is such a weak villain in terms of personality that it's just hard to see him as a genuine threat and he's so prominent that it's also hard to be invested in the plot. Also, I can't help but think that Waid only made him Barry's twin just to make Wally symbolically defeat Barry (Because apparently it wasn't enough when he did it in The Return of Barry Allen) and let's not forget the ending where Wally basically defeated the Antimonitor (something that Barry couldn't do. HINT! HINT!) and is so fan-wankery that it pretty much summarizes what Waid run had become at that point.

    Also, The Dark Flash arc (which was okay) was not even the end of his run, the end was a mediocre team-up with Captain Marvel. Now THAT is anticlimactic.

    So overall, yeah, I don't think so highly of it and it gets worse and worse everytime I go back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    Johns Flash run is primarily focused on The Rogues, Particularly his admitted man crush Captain Cold. Wally is almost a secondary character in his own book. Honestly the only Flash trade I would bother with by Johns is The Secret Life of Barry Allen. That has more of Flash focus.
    I think many people forget the point of Johns' run. He acknowledged several times during his first Flash run that Wally had passed all the tests that life gave him at that point (and it was true), he had already matured and there was not much to do with his own character so Johns decided to focus on the world around him which was severely underdeveloped.

    That's not to say that Wally lacked any character during his work since he pretty much still was the most prominent voice there. Even during Rogue's War, Johns' last storyarc which you would think was going to mostly focus on the Rogues, he adressed that Wally was the most important part of the book and decided to give him one last challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    I think Waid as so intent on make Wally distinct from Barry that he deliberately avoided using the classical Rogues (other than Zoom with a twist, making him, for that occasion, Wally's villain, rather than Barry's), prefering to invest on giving Wally his own Rogues, such as Savitar, Tarpit, the Folded Man, Chillbaine (the slew of them, rather than Captain Cold), Kobra (an established DC villain that he tried to make the Flash's), etc... I, for one, think that many of them had a lot of potential. He did seem to have a thing for James Jessie, the original Trickster, though.
    That wasn't really the reason because Waid did use Barry's Rogues, the thing is that he apparently didn't know how to use them well.

    He killed most of them including Captain Cold, Heatwave and Captain Boomerang during his story Underworld Unleashed while telling how ridiculous they were and making them say lines like: "No! It's not fair!".

    He pretty much made The Reverse-Flash a pathetic coward once that Wally was able to reach his speed.

    And also created the villain Chillblaine to replace Captain Cold as the ice-themed Rogue who was just two-bit thug and even more bland than a villain created in the Silver Age and also murdered the Golden Glider just to prove how "dangerous" he was (which makes me think that Waid dodged quite the HUGE bullet because if that would have happened these days you can bet that Waid would have been accussed of being a misogynist).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    I think that was Waid's biggest weakness is that he went of his way to not use the Rouges. I don't know if had and actual dislike for the characters or just liked making up more and more Speed based bad guys, but he only ever really used Mirror Master out of all the Rogues. Waid is the one that killed all the Rogues to begin with in the Underworld Unleashed event.
    Yeah, sadly not even Waid's Speed Force villains were that interesting.

  7. #22
    Jesus Christ, redeemer! The Whovian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    It caught on with every Flash writer who has come and gone since. Ever since the Speed Force concept was first unveiled in 1994, it's permeated the majority of Flash stories. Waid's introduction of the Speed Force concept did for the FLASH franchise what Frank Miller's THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS did for the grim and gritty aspect of Batman in that franchise.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    Agreed. If not for the speed force, Barry Allen wouldn't be back right now. So by creating the speed force, it allowed DC to bring Barry back
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  8. #23
    DC Enthusiast Tony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    Agreed. If not for the speed force, Barry Allen wouldn't be back right now. So by creating the speed force, it allowed DC to bring Barry back
    It's comic books no speed force required that's just what they went with. Beats Superboy punch for Jason Todd

  9. #24
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Knight1047 View Post
    Agreed. If not for the speed force, Barry Allen wouldn't be back right now. So by creating the speed force, it allowed DC to bring Barry back
    Oh, DC would have brought Barry back one way or another. In fact, there was a back door written into Crisis to allow it, if things hadn't worked out. I have no idea what that back door was, but it was there from the beginning; Johns could have just used that, with some minor tweaks perhaps, if no other options had come to him.

    Anyway, I loved Waid's run, though I havent read any of those old issues in a decade or more. Loved the Walter West arc, and still wish that character would be brought back (actually....I wouldnt be against him showing up and replacing the current Wally now that I think of it), the Savitar arc, and the Black Flash arc by Morrison-Millar, all remain favorites and the standard I compare all Flash stories to. And even though I loathed the "evil twin" thing with Cobalt Blue and thought the entire foundation of that story was terrible, I really liked the idea of the Thawne/Allen-West family feud, and it was a blast seeing all the future Flashes. And I for one thought that Wally blowing the Anti-Monitor apart by himself was pretty damned badass. Of course I was much younger at the time.....

    As for Johns' first run, it was good, but nowhere near Waid's. But Johns did so much for the villains, its hard to say who accomplished more. Both Johns' take on the Rogues, especially Cold, and Waid's Speed Force concepts have become staples of the franchise, so I'd say they're both pretty important. But I enjoyed Waid much more. Except for Hunter "Zoom" Zoloman, who is easily one of the greatest, creepiest villains DC has ever had.

    As for who was faster, it was Wally all the way. Not even a competition. He did more with speed than Barry ever imagined, essentially becoming a manipulator of kinetic energy rather than just a guy who could run really fast. But Rebirth f**ked that over hard in one of the most pointless retcons DC has ever had the misfortune of printing.
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  10. #25
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post

    But even that is not as bad as what would become the worst thing he has done in the Flash franchise: Chain Lightning.

    Sure, his second run in the series was offensively mediocre but that at least wasn't pure offensive. By introducing the villain Cobalt Blue who is actually the very cliche evil twin of Barry Allen, he not only created a terrible antagonist for the series but also created what Cobalt Blue called "Barry's dual identity problems" due that now Barry apparently became a superhero not because he loved his job but because he needed to adopt another identity due to the loss of his unknown twin.

    This wouldn't have been so bad if at least Waid would have negated such claim, he never did. He just left that up in the air and never bothered to even adress it again which makes me think that he either forgot about it or simply didn't care.

    That's not the only problem from that arc though. The story itself could have been a pretty inventive tale about the Flash mythos and history but unfortunately, Cobalt Blue is such a weak villain in terms of personality that it's just hard to see him as a genuine threat and he's so prominent that it's also hard to be invested in the plot. Also, I can't help but think that Waid only made him Barry's twin just to make Wally symbolically defeat Barry (Because apparently that wasn't enough when he did it in The Return of Barry Allen) and let's not forget the ending where Wally basically defeated the Antimonitor (something that Barry couldn't do HINT! HINT!) and is so fan-wankery that it pretty much summarizes what Waid run had become at that point.

    Also, The Dark Flash arc (which was okay) was not even the end of his run, the end was a mediocre team-up with Captain Marvel. Now THAT is anticlimactic.

    So overall, yeah, I don't think so highly of it and it gets worse and worse everytime I go back.
    That wasn't really the reason because Waid did use Barry's Rogues, the thing is that he apparently didn't know how to use them well.

    He killed most of them including Captain Cold, Heatwave and Captain Boomerang during his story Underworld Unleashed while telling how ridiculous they were and making them say lines like: "No! It's not fair!".

    He pretty much made The Reverse-Flash a pathetic coward once that Wally was able to reach his speed.

    And also created the villain Chillblaine to replace Captain Cold as the ice-themed Rogue who was just two-bit thug and even more bland than a villain created in the Silver Age and also murdered the Golden Glider just to prove how "dangerous" he was (which makes me think that Waid dodged quite the HUGE bullet because if that would have happened these days you can bet that Waid would have been accussed of being a mysoginist).
    Wow...this doesn't stop me from wanting to read the Waid run, or respect him immensely as a creator, but this sounds kinda bad. Granted, I haven't read it for myself, but I can't say I like what I'm reading .

    Though I admit I probably would think Wally beating the Anti-Monitor was awesome, at least the first time I would read it, only to nitpick it much later. That's happened a lot as a comic book fan .

    Considering how Waid treated the classic Rogues, I'm really glad Johns focused on them in his run and showed why they're such iconic Flash villains. Seems like a good trade-off in terms of focus and treatment when it comes to their runs, in hat they dealt with and focused on in regards to the Flash mythos .
    Last edited by Frontier; 06-07-2015 at 07:18 PM.

  11. #26
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    I liked return of Barry Allen and dead heat probably the best. The issue where he first moves faster than light was really good. However I would say johns run is more consistent, the high pints here may be higher. I didn't really understand waids love for Kadabra though.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    It caught on with every Flash writer who has come and gone since. Ever since the Speed Force concept was first unveiled in 1994, it's permeated the majority of Flash stories. Waid's introduction of the Speed Force concept did for the FLASH franchise what Frank Miller's THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS did for the grim and gritty aspect of Batman in that franchise.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    It did, no denying it "worked".

    But I regard it as one of most successful con tricks in comics. Somehow people accept it as a "scientific" explanation of Flash's feats. Why??

    Want a human body to accelerate/ decelerate at rates that would crush a rhino??: "Speed force".

    Want to break light barrier??: "Speed force"

    Want to move through atmosphere at incredible velocity without any friction??: "Speed force"

    Want to move at faster than escape velocity without moving an inch from surface of the Earth?: "Speed force"

    Want to move at incredible speed without mass increasing??: "Speed force".

    What to increase or decrease speed of other objects just by wishing?? : Speed force

    i.e. Waid's "scientific" explanation just assumes an unknown force that then allows EVERYTHING to operate outside any known rules of physics...and operated in a completely arbitrary way in Wally's own world: any time he needed a new power he went into the speed force and "lo, it appeared".


    But..of course...the genius was calling it "speed force"...it would never do to call it magic.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Batson View Post
    Johns was pretty much the only writer in that Flash series to give focus to the villains.
    At least as villains.

    Messner Loebs, I got a better sense of them as humans (in particular liking his work with the Piper).

    Though I very much like Waid's use of James Jesse.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member dancj's Avatar
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    Waid's run was decent for me. I think I slightly preferred Messner-Loebs's run.

    The best I've read though was the earlier part of Goeff Johns's run when Scott Kolins was on the art. When Kolins left it lost something.

  15. #30
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Sure, his second run in the series was offensively mediocre but that at least wasn't pure offensive. By introducing the villain Cobalt Blue who is actually the very cliche evil twin of Barry Allen, he not only created a terrible antagonist for the series but also created what Cobalt Blue called "Barry's dual identity problems" due that now Barry apparently became a superhero not because he loved his job but because he needed to adopt another identity due to the loss of his unknown twin.
    Yeah, we've done this before, but let me just recall everyone that "Barry's dual identity issues" only exist if you take the words from Cobalt Blue at face value.

    A guy who hadn't any psychological training, never talked to Barry and, more, was insane and sort of an idiot.

    There were no dual identity issues,

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