Hal Jordan vs Goku

[Pendaran]

Of course, this brings up the other point that had already been mentioned, which is that, if for some unexplained reason his army of relative gnats did contribute notably to the destruction of Vegetasei despite never having even been vaguely hinted at doing so in any medium, that would in no way suggest that Form 1 Frieza isn't a casual planet buster since his army is a bunch of gnats relative to him. As you said, people nowhere near his power have done things that would let them contribute notably to destroying a planet, with a few claiming to be capable of doing it by themselves while still being nowhere near Frieza.

And as noted earlier, a dude that was able to casually vape something with 1/81th the mass of Earth without charging, after having significantly drained himself earlier that day, had less than 1/1000th the power level of Form 1 Frieza. And even in-universe, power level readings are generally considered to be low-balling the characters because it doesn't take things like reserves or techniques into play.

I notice that I haven't actually given an opinion of the fight: at equal speeds, Hal should be able to phase and hit Goku with some sort of esoteric attack bwfore Goku can blow him up by looking in his general direction, but it'll be close.

This other point has nothing to do with taking a showing that is not a clear performance, then saying it is anyway despite that it is an off panel showing, of a guy with a host of followers, who you keep trying to talk about being gnats to him, which glosses over what other gnats to him have done.

And as noted earlier, a dude that was able to casually vape something with 1/81th the mass of Earth without charging, after having significantly drained himself earlier that day, had less than 1/1000th the power level of Form 1 Frieza. And even in-universe, power level readings are generally considered to be low-balling the characters because it doesn't take things like reserves or techniques into play.

This has nothing to do with taking a showing that is not a clear performance, then saying it is anyway despite that it is an off panel showing, of a guy with a host of followers, who you keep trying to talk about being gnats to him, which glosses over what other gnats to him have done.

As you said, people nowhere near his power have done things that would let them contribute notably to destroying a planet, with a few claiming to be capable of doing it by themselves while still being nowhere near Frieza.

Then again, this would only make claiming this is a clear showing anyway all the more questionable.

This is my point, or certainly part of the overall point.

I don't care if the guy can blow up planets or not. I do care about basically just saying "meh, this showing is fine", when it's an off panel performance that can easily have asterisks put on it. Your own posts has a myriad of better arguments to make for "Frieza, planet buster", that holding onto this one anyway is just odd.

[Aura Blaize]

The problem with DBZ feats off panel IMO is that they have attacks that can cause damage beyond their actual level ( and often need charge up time)

Things like the spirit bomb or Krillin's disk

That being said , the Bardock special is canon right? It's referenced in the manga and all. So does Frieza reaaly need to do it on panel? There is only one story and it is referred to in the manga. is there any reason to believe that it didn't happen as it happened in the special?

That's the point I'm trying to make. It was referenced in the manga itself. There's no contradictions so we wouldn't HAVE to have it shown in manga form. Including Bardock in the official manga is Akira saying "Yup. this is what happened. No need to show it again."

[Pendaran]

I can. The special itself. There is nothing, NOTHING that says it's not canon. Bardock is a Toei creation, yes. But unlike someone like Broly or Cooler, he's been referenced in the manga itself. Freiza remembers the saiyan that stood up against him and we see he's talking about Bardock. "Father of Goku" is in the same boat as BoG and RoF. There's no manga counterpart, but it's still canon. Otherwise you'd think that Akira would have done something to overrule it in the 25 years since it aired.

So I ask you this...how else would he have destroyed the planet?

Having a horde of followers including various people and weapons of heft? And really? The special is canon now? So what has been with all the people who call it non canon and acknowledge it as such? Guy1, others, even various people who argue that Frieza totally blew up that planet have called the special non canon. Were they all wrong?

[Pendaran]

That's the point I'm trying to make. It was referenced in the manga itself. There's no contradictions so we wouldn't HAVE to have it shown in manga form. Including Bardock in the official manga is Akira saying "Yup. this is what happened. No need to show it again."

The point you are trying to make ignores when something was never shown happening, and only was portrayed that way in non canonical material.

"This character showing up means everything around that anime filler is now canon" is sure an interesting bridge to leap to.

That borders on "well once Firestar showed up in Spiderman comics/comics generally, Spiderman and his Amazing Friends is now canon".

[Pendaran]

The problem with DBZ feats off panel IMO is that they have attacks that can cause damage beyond their actual level ( and often need charge up time)

Things like the spirit bomb or Krillin's disk

That being said , the Bardock special is canon right? It's referenced in the manga and all. So does Frieza reaaly need to do it on panel? There is only one story and it is referred to in the manga. is there any reason to believe that it didn't happen as it happened in the special?

There's sure a character(s) from it that shows up and an off panel incident involving Goku's planet.

And when the guy has a host of followers with him and even the posts in this thread are going "yes, people beneath him would be powerful on the scale of..." it's handing a gimme to this that off panel showings don't particularly get.

Spiderman says the Sentry stalemated Galactus as an actual event that happened. Lots of people talk about the Sentry as some unstoppable ur force. There was an entire miniseries that put forward that the Sentry is basically his own dimension, inventing origins for himself and only restraining himself because he wants to ("That was just Reed telling stories!" you might say. Reed himself noted he was just using the stories as a medium to talk about his noodlings on what he determined about the Sentry). Hey, the Sentry totally overwhelmed the Molecule Man. I guess we should let that one go even though that never happened where it could be seen and whatever thing could have happened.

[Aura Blaize]

The point you are trying to make ignores when something was never shown happening, and only was portrayed that way in non canonical material.

"This character showing up means everything around that anime filler is now canon" is sure an interesting bridge to leap to.

That borders on "well once Firestar showed up in Spiderman comics/comics generally, Spiderman and his Amazing Friends is now canon".

If Firestar showed up and started referencing things that happened in Spiderman and his Amazing Friends, then yes, that would absolutely be canon. That's what happened here. Freiza flashed back to when he destroyed Vegeta and remembered a character that up until that point had only one appearance. There's nothing in that scene that says "Hey, this isn't how it happened." There is nothing in the 25 years since that said "Hey, this happened differently. Here's the real story." Including Bardock is saying 'hey, remember that special? Yeah, that's how **** went down.'

[Pendaran]

So, is there anything in that 25 years in canon material that actually showed how it happened or not?

If Firestar showed up and started referencing things that happened in Spiderman and his Amazing Friends, then yes, that would absolutely be canon.

If the reference was a cut away sampling of something that goes off panel, I'd find that as unclean as this.

[The Dork Knight]

There's sure a character from it that shows up and an off panel incident involving Goku's planet.

And when the guy has a host of followers with him and even the posts in this thread are going "yes, people beneath him would be powerful on the scale of..." it's handing a gimme to this that off panel showings don't particularly get.

I know . he might have even powered off panel to use a special attack or anything really. but there is an actual special about how the events played out, the character from the special are shown in the manga, and Frieza busting Vegeta in his first form is mentioned. there is nothing contradicting anything

Spiderman says the Sentry stalemated Galactus as an actual event that happened.

and we have no clue what actually happened as opposed to the Frieza instance and further thrown into confusion by Nate Grey mentioning they teamed up to beat galactus ( off panel)

Lots of people talk about the Sentry as some unstoppable ur force. There was an entire miniseries that put forward that the Sentry is basically his own dimension, inventing origins for himself and only restraining himself because he wants to.

Contradicted by several things including the angel of death thing just before his death

Hey, the Sentry totally overwhelmed the Molecule Man. I guess we should let that one go even though that never happened where it could be seen and whatever thing could have happened.

Post retcon molecule man, who isn't nearly as powerful

The difference between the things you mentioned and the Vegeta instance, is that these things are either contradicted or not shown at all , as opposed to the Vegeta thing, which sticks to the narrative shown in the special including the specific mention of Frieza doing the busting in his first form

[Pendaran]

Contradicted by several things including the angel of death thing just before his death

According to Reed, the Sentry is basically constantly redefining the timeline around himself to stories that he prefers, so, no contradictions whatsoever. That's just space and time reshaping around the narrative of the Sentry.

I know . he might have even powered off panel to use a special attack or anything really. but there is an actual special about how the events played out, the character from the special are shown in the manga, and Frieza busting Vegeta in his first form is mentioned. there is nothing contradicting anything

There's a non canon special about how the events played out.

Post retcon molecule man, who isn't nearly as powerful

Naaah, he totally has a showing involving a Beyonder fight where piles of dimensions get shaken and slagged, and Hickman treated him as all kinds of crazypants. He's apparently somewhere up there still, even if not original recipe caliber.

and further thrown into confusion by Nate Grey mentioning they teamed up to beat galactus ( off panel)

And when last we saw Frieza, he was with a bunch of his dudes. Beyond that, Spiderman was referring to just the Sentry doing the outright stalemating, Nate just mentions that the two of them fought Galactus once.

[Aura Blaize]

So, is there anything in that 25 years in canon material that actually showed how it happened or not?



If the reference was a cut away sampling of something that goes off panel, I'd find that as unclean as this.

It hasn't been shown in the manga. It doesn't have to be because it was shown in a special that was referenced in the manga. Why on earth would it have to be reiterated when, again, the special shows Freiza blowing up the damn planet. Why would Akira even include Bardock in the manga if he didn't intend for his story to be canon? Are we seriously trying to say that Freiza didn't have the power to blow up the planet and instead needed to use his army to do so?? That kind of goes against everything we know about Freiza in the first place.

[Pendaran]

Because when things are not made as part of something's canon, some reference to some part of them is not a magic wand that goes "poof, all canon!", particularly when the reference happens in a way that leaves the actual canon material depicted problematically?

Are we seriously trying to say that Freiza didn't have the power to blow up the planet and instead needed to use his army to do so??

We're seriously trying to say that off panel showings involving a guy and his followers, don't show anything of value about what that guy and or his followers did.

edit: it's a lucky thing beyond that apparently that the Star Wars EU got that official purging because otherwise by this standard there were all kinds of references and dudes from it that would find their way into the main material as far as that we should have been letting big ol chunks slide the whole time.

[Aura Blaize]

Because when things are not made as part of something's canon, some reference to some part of them is not a magic wand that goes "poof, all canon!", particularly when the reference happens in a way that leaves the actual canon material depicted problematically?

Except it's not problematic. Freiza destroyed Vegeta in a special. Bardock opposed him in said special. Both events were referenced in the canon story. If Akira wanted the story to take a different turn, don't you think he would have....you know....written it that way?

We're seriously trying to say that off panel showings involving a guy and his followers, don't show anything of value about what that guy and or his followers did.

So answer me this. How did Freiza destroy Vegeta? Because we know it happened. It's been referenced many times. In every medium it's shown the exact same way. Except for in the manga, where we get a reference to a special. And yet, we are supposed to believe that in the 25 years since, this is NOT what happened?? That Akira didn't go 'hey, this isn't how I wanted it to go'? Seriously, why the reference then? Why not flat out show Freiza doing the deed? Because we don't NEED it as it's ALREADY BEEN SHOWN. If Akira wanted to do something different, he would have by now.

[Pendaran]

Except it's not problematic. Freiza destroyed Vegeta in a special. Bardock opposed him in said special. Both events were referenced in the canon story. If Akira wanted the story to take a different turn, don't you think he would have....you know....written it that way?

We'll never know, since it happened, once again, off panel where the last shot was the guy and his followers.

So answer me this. How did Freiza destroy Vegeta?

I don't know, because it happened off panel and left off with the guy and his followers, who have been ceded the point that even gnats to Frieza are capable of various crap. That would be the problem of it being an off panel showing that left off with the guy and his followers. That being, the point.

Except for in the manga, where we get a reference to a special.

So "it's shown the same way, except for when it actually happens in canon."

Except for in the manga, where we get a reference to a special. And yet, we are supposed to believe that in the 25 years since, this is NOT what happened??

What exactly are we supposed to believe about a canon showing that you can't show how it happened?

That Akira didn't go 'hey, this isn't how I wanted it to go'? Seriously, why the reference then? Why not flat out show Freiza doing the deed? Because we don't NEED it as it's ALREADY BEEN SHOWN. If Akira wanted to do something different, he would have by now.

So, can you show me where in canon this happened like you say it did then? Because at this point as far as canon material, you've gone into the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence territory.

And again, so, the Sentry, we're going with he stalemated Galactus then? Paul Jenkins, who wrote that, if we're going to talk about now "well the writer clearly meant" as a standard for evidence to wave away off panel performances that can have asterisks put on them, everything that dude writes about the Sentry refers to him as a guy who can totally do crap like that and is only restrained by his own whackadoodlery. He was his special Mary Sue. He's had a while and was even allowed to come back to the character years later where he could have said otherwise. He didn't. (edit: what he in fact did do was write this.. hysterically godawful mess that treated the Sentry as having been some kind of superheroic lynchpin of the wellbeing of Marvel Earth's hero community)

Hell, Paul Jenkins created the Sentry, no less. So.. same standard.

(If someone can actually find me Jenkins saying he changed his mind or wasn't serious on that or... something, I will not only happily take that back, the world will be just a tiny bit brighter of a place)

[Aura Blaize]

We'll never know, since it happened, once again, off panel where the last shot was the guy and his followers.



I don't know, because it happened off panel and left off with the guy and his followers, who have been ceded the point that even gnats to Frieza are capable of various crap. That would be the problem of it being an off panel showing that left off with the guy and his followers. That being, the point.


So "it's shown the same way, except for when it actually happens in canon."



What exactly are we supposed to believe about a canon showing that you can't show how it happened?



So, can you show me where in canon this happened like you say it did then? Because at this point as far as canon material, you've gone into the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence territory.

And again, so, the Sentry, we're going with he stalemated Galactus then? Paul Jenkins, who wrote that, if we're going to talk about now "well the writer clearly meant" as a standard for evidence to wave away off panel performances that can have asterisks put on them, everything that dude writes about the Sentry refers to him as a guy who can totally do crap like that and is only restrained by his own whackadoodlery. He was his special Mary Sue. He's had a while and was even allowed to come back to the character years later where he could have said otherwise. He didn't.

Hell, Paul Jenkins created the Sentry, no less. So.. same standard.

(If someone can actually find me Jenkins saying he changed his mind or wasn't serious on that or... something, I will not only happily take that back, the world will be just a tiny bit brighter of a place)

Well the planet clearly blew up in the special unless I'm misremembering something.

As for the Sentry, if they showed him stalemating galactus in a TV show and then stated that it was in the same continuity as the comics and showed it happening the same way in various mediums and then actually referenced it in the comics themselves then yeah...it would be the same thing as this.

Also, Paul Jenkins created Sentry. Akira created Freiza, Goku and the entire damn universe. Totally NOT the same thing. Akira brought in a character from a special that aired not long before into the official canon when another character referenced the events from said special. He looks the same, is in the exact same position as he is in the special (in space surrounded by Freiza's men) and his final moment is drawn in the same way....But NO! Something else ENTIRELY DIFFERENT happened!!

Come on! I understand that we can't read the writer/creator's minds, but in this case it's pretty freaking blatant as to what the intention was. Akira brought Bardock into the main canon because of the special (which has been said to have been his favorite). Otherwise, why bother making his manga appearance the same as his special appearance?

[Pendaran]

Well the planet clearly blew up in the special unless I'm misremembering something.

So again, you can't actually show how it happened in canon.

and then stated that it was in the same continuity as the comics

This never happened either, as far as "everything that happened here is now canon" unless I missed a quote from the writer himself being provided.

and showed it happening the same way in various mediums

Somehow never in the canon ones.

Also, Paul Jenkins created Sentry. Akira created Freiza, Goku and the entire damn universe. Totally NOT the same thing. Akira brought in a character from a special that aired not long before into the official canon when another character referenced the events from said special. He looks the same, is in the exact same position as he is in the special (in space surrounded by Freiza's men) and his final moment is drawn in the same way....But NO! Something else ENTIRELY DIFFERENT happened!!.

So, you can otherwise show what happened then?

And yeap, Paul Jenkins created the Sentry, then said what the Sentry did. No one ever wrote anything afterwards saying the Sentry never did that (prove me wrong internet! I /want/ you to. I am not kidding. Prove me wrong. I'll buy you a coke. The entire internet.), and in fact various people wrote things afterwards with all kinds of statements about the Sentry being crazy, crazy powerful, coming from Reed, or even Watchers.

That actually seems even better by these standards. I guess we are going with he stalemated Galactus then.

I understand that we can't read the writer/creator's minds, but in this case it's pretty freaking blatant as to what the intention was.

It's pretty freaking blatant that Paul Jenkins' intention was that the Sentry stalemated Galactus, and when he's otherwise saying everyone and their mother, including Classic Doctor Strange, Thor, the hero and villain population of Marvel Earth together could face him and they would only completely die for that happening, it's pretty freaking blatant he doesn't mean "and Galactus was weakened". It's pretty freaking blatant for various off panel things that can nevertheless have shade thrown on them for what was actually by contrast shown on panel. Them's the breaks.

Otherwise, why bother making his manga appearance the same as his special appearance?

Why did Bendis bother with what came off as trying to rewrite away the Secret Wars retcon (though Hickman mercifully ignored that, if only to then come up with his own.... thing... to wash all that away) if not to run with "nah, all these guys are in fact totally stupid powerful, they were just maybe secret inhumans or whatever or the Beyonder has actually been fucking with everyone all this time" in order to underscore the Sentry as stupid powerful for wasting the Molecule Man?

The simple answer to these things boils down to: It doesn't matter, because it still happened off panel, and what did happen on panel is inconclusive and can be questioned. Anything else is completely irrelevant.

Otherwise, Jenkins clearly meant what he meant, and several other writers pulled some crap that would even further it. One of them even pulled an explanation for any lower showing right out of his ass. So why not the Sentry stalemated Galactus, by this standard.