When the Subtext Was Missed

[t hedge coke]

Because comics are easy to grab a panel out of context from, and - sadly - because too many superhero fans can be quick to take everything at face value, there are a lot of moments or costumes that get brought up as examples of how WRONG! somebody got Captain America, the Invisible Woman, or whoever, that in-story should have been clearly a character moment, or a joke, or part of a satirical story. So, this is a thread for those. Moments that we typically misremember, or learned wrong from a joke site excerpting one panel. Stuff that people just read wrong for whatever reason.

This is a clear the air thread. Vent and educate.

ArmorCap from the end of Gruenwald's run was humiliating for Captain America. It was a stupid tank full of tricks that he had to wear just to keep going. And, then he died.



That suit Sue wore with keyhole 4 cut out of the top was from a time when she was desperate for her husband to pay attention to her, feeling old and too like a "mom," and had a disembodied spirit of rage and pettiness attacking her brain.



She went overboard and everyone, in-story, reacted as if it was a bad idea, except one horny dude who hoped it meant she'd sleep with him.

Patsy Walker did commit suicide while married to the Son of Satan, but he didn't talk her into it, and he was, clearly, in-story, hurt by it. He was trying to save her. He was trying to save their life/lifestyle. He failed, and even trying, he wasn't the greatest, but he wasn't the devil sitting by her side talking her into it. (And he didn't enslave his former teammate Gargoyle, either; they're joking. They're being jerks to each other because Patsy's hurting bad and they both love her.)

[Chimeratengun]

The more I see Sue's suit in almost every thread the more it becomes "Iconic" like Goblin Queens under boob dress. That was messed up about Patsy but she got better.

[ed2962]

You know, when I read the title before I clicked on the first thing I thought was Rorsach from Watchmen where some fans look at him like a bad-ass hero and miss the fact that he acts that way because he is mentally unstable.

One that might work is Millar's Ult Cap. He's kinda single minded/not a broad thinker and Millar meant that as a flaw but some fans took it again as him being bad ass and "realistic".

[KOSLOX]

Danielle Cage with "green eyes" in the Secret Invasion tie in. To this day I see people say that there is a plot hole and that she's a skrull. Here eyes (Iris) weren't "green" they tinted the white of her eye for effect. The entire point of that panel was a B movie style gag to push the who do you trust angle. She was never a Skrull, it was a fairly obvious one off bit.

[CSTowle]

You know, when I read the title before I clicked on the first thing I thought was Rorsach from Watchmen where some fans look at him like a bad-ass hero and miss the fact that he acts that way because he is mentally unstable.

One that might work is Millar's Ult Cap. He's kinda single minded/not a broad thinker and Millar meant that as a flaw but some fans took it again as him being bad ass and "realistic".

It didn't seem like Millar had subtext there, it seemed like he legitimately wanted him to come off as "bad-ass". Regardless, many fans I've talked to saw it that way and enjoyed him. They often cite what I feel is the most cringeworthy Captain America moment I've ever read (and I'm including Cap-Wolf), the "Do you think this letter on my head stands for France?" as their favorite "Ultimates" moment. In their defense, there weren't many other noteworthy or interesting moments in the series.

[Kieran_Frost]

Moonstone's manipulations in Dark Avengers were seen (on face value) as just her sleeping around. Even after Victoria Hand spelt it out "if you can't tell she's manipulating you..." people still think of her as just a sex addict. SMH.

[Of Atlantis]

Patsy Walker did commit suicide while married to the Son of Satan, but he didn't talk her into it, and he was, clearly, in-story, hurt by it. He was trying to save her. He was trying to save their life/lifestyle. He failed, and even trying, he wasn't the greatest, but he wasn't the devil sitting by her side talking her into it. (And he didn't enslave his former teammate Gargoyle, either; they're joking. They're being jerks to each other because Patsy's hurting bad and they both love her.)

So few people actually acknowledge this. Even writers simply write Hellstrom off as a simple villain when his character has always really been about overcoming his evil nature.

[t hedge coke]

It didn't seem like Millar had subtext there, it seemed like he legitimately wanted him to come off as "bad-ass". Regardless, many fans I've talked to saw it that way and enjoyed him. They often cite what I feel is the most cringeworthy Captain America moment I've ever read (and I'm including Cap-Wolf), the "Do you think this letter on my head stands for France?" as their favorite "Ultimates" moment. In their defense, there weren't many other noteworthy or interesting moments in the series.

I think him screwing up with Jan so bad, and his breaking down and crying to Bucky, "I have no other friends," goes a long way to showing Cap wasn't quite as on the ball as his gung-ho attitude implied.

[Of Atlantis]

It didn't seem like Millar had subtext there, it seemed like he legitimately wanted him to come off as "bad-ass". Regardless, many fans I've talked to saw it that way and enjoyed him. They often cite what I feel is the most cringeworthy Captain America moment I've ever read (and I'm including Cap-Wolf), the "Do you think this letter on my head stands for France?" as their favorite "Ultimates" moment. In their defense, there weren't many other noteworthy or interesting moments in the series.

He was my favourite Ultimate character because I tend to enjoy reading pragmatic types. I felt like given the circumstances, he was a very "real" interpretation of Captain America at the time. I figured, yes, he would be relatively conservative, hard-nosed, opinionated, jaded and hate pretty much everything about modern society.

It's funny because that one line is the line I felt made him seem most like a jingoistic stereotype and I hated it. It single-handedly turned him into a parody. And then Jason Aaron's mini would completely kill the character for me.

[t hedge coke]

He was my favourite Ultimate character because I tend to enjoy reading pragmatic types. I felt like given the circumstances, he was a very "real" interpretation of Captain America at the time. I figured, yes, he would be relatively conservative, hard-nosed, opinionated, jaded and hate pretty much everything about modern society.

I never felt was "more realistic" than the guy we normally have, but I'm judging him against people I know from that generation, and maybe I just know more liberal old folks. I look at family from that generation and they were gay, marched with King, worked with the NAACP, and really put in their time. My grandpa's like ninety-four now and he can recognize Ariana Grande and Flo Rida songs. I like a Cap who's like that, like Waid's Cap, someone who immerses himself earnestly.

And, if I look at Kirby, I see a man constantly refining his sense of justice and fairness, a man with a genuine passion and a humane sensibility, who also valued a good scrap, and kept up with modern trends and entertainment.

But, I like that Ultimate Cap wasn't just Cap transported over. I like a lot of what Millar was doing with him, I'm just not as cynical, I guess, to believe it's more true to life. In this instance, I believe in the superhero. I think Millar would probably agree, though, that it's a more plausible take.

[Of Atlantis]

I never felt was "more realistic" than the guy we normally have, but I'm judging him against people I know from that generation, and maybe I just know more liberal old folks. I look at family from that generation and they were gay, marched with King, worked with the NAACP, and really put in their time. My grandpa's like ninety-four now and he can recognize Ariana Grande and Flo Rida songs. I like a Cap who's like that, like Waid's Cap, someone who immerses himself earnestly.

And, if I look at Kirby, I see a man constantly refining his sense of justice and fairness, a man with a genuine passion and a humane sensibility, who also valued a good scrap, and kept up with modern trends and entertainment.

But, I like that Ultimate Cap wasn't just Cap transported over. I like a lot of what Millar was doing with him, I'm just not as cynical, I guess, to believe it's more true to life. In this instance, I believe in the superhero. I think Millar would probably agree, though, that it's a more plausible take.

Me and you know very different elderly folk then. More realistic may not be the appropriate term. Maybe more plausible? For me anyways. I suppose it varies on a number of factors. For a white, straight male, I generally assume the environment of the 1930s and 40s would be wildly different in terms of their socio political opinions, just given the fact society was "behind the times". Growing old and easing into the modern age is one thing, but being completely transplanted is another.

[JohnLynch]

Avengers vs X-Men was seen as an attack on the X-Men. But it wasn't. It was a new spin on the Phoenix Saga. While some of the X-Men may have been poorly written in some of the books, so were the Avengers. Ultimately the Phoenix does what it always does, but the X-Men had enough perspective to see this. The Phoenix was defeated and the X-Men failed to create Utopia on Earth (as they would always have done so or else no more comics set on Earth), but the X-Men weren't defeated. It wasn't Avengers vs X-Men, it was Earth vs The Phoenix. And mutants won. House of M was finally undone.

[ed2962]

It didn't seem like Millar had subtext there, it seemed like he legitimately wanted him to come off as "bad-ass". Regardless, many fans I've talked to saw it that way and enjoyed him. They often cite what I feel is the most cringeworthy Captain America moment I've ever read (and I'm including Cap-Wolf), the "Do you think this letter on my head stands for France?" as their favorite "Ultimates" moment. In their defense, there weren't many other noteworthy or interesting moments in the series.

He was a genuine bad ass, but Millar I thought kinda wrote him as a dumb jock. It's one thing to have different values, but it seemed like his reaction to every third thing was to hit someone and go rogue ( I'm exaggerating a little). And his actions in New Ultimates didn't even make sense to me ( Red Skull arc)

[AcesX1X]

Avengers vs X-Men was seen as an attack on the X-Men. But it wasn't. It was a new spin on the Phoenix Saga. While some of the X-Men may have been poorly written in some of the books, so were the Avengers. Ultimately the Phoenix does what it always does, but the X-Men had enough perspective to see this. The Phoenix was defeated and the X-Men failed to create Utopia on Earth (as they would always have done so or else no more comics set on Earth), but the X-Men weren't defeated. It wasn't Avengers vs X-Men, it was Earth vs The Phoenix. And mutants won. House of M was finally undone.

"some??!~" all of the x-men who weren't high on phoenix ended up crawling through a field of wheat like slow-moving cows. BEGGING for the avengers to save them from themselves. wtf

[JohnLynch]

"some??!~" all of the x-men who weren't high on phoenix ended up crawling through a field of wheat like slow-moving cows. BEGGING for the avengers to save them from themselves. wtf

Guess we read different books, because excluding a handful of titles (Wolverine and the X-Men, Vs and a handful of Greg Land issues) I read the whole thing and that's not what I read. I instead saw the X-Men doing the right thing and genuinely doing good, even the ones who weren't affected by the Phoenix Five (e.g. Iceman, Storm). I saw Rogue genuinely believe in the work of the Phoenix and then upon seeing the bad they'd started doing due to the corruption of the Phoenix (which always occurs) I saw her genuinely turn on them because of her own moral compass. I saw Magneto actually turn on them and turn to Charles for aid (not the Avengers, but Charles). I saw Charles be a crucial element in stopping the Phoenix and ultimately it was Wanda assisting Hope and with Wanda acting in a support role Hope saved the day and we saw the return of mutants. I saw the Avengers, without any really strong motivation, attack the mutants and declare war on them for no reason except they might do the wrong thing. Had the Avengers had their way, the mutants would still be one catastrophe away from extinction. Sure the Avengers were right in that the Phoenix did corrupt (as it always does) but they were also wrong in that it did save the mutants from extinction.

Maybe it's because I read it all in one go, maybe it's because I wasn't surrounded by months of people bitching about how the Marvel is writing this just to make the Avengers look good at the expense of the X-Men. But I was expecting to read a few issues of this event and then skip over it because I expected it to be an outright character assassination against the X-Men. That's not what I got though. I instead got a refreshing take on an old plotline and I enjoyed it for what it was.

If you read it and saw it as an attack on the X-Men then that's your prerogative. But that's now what I read so I came into the vent thread to vent.