When the Subtext Was Missed

[t hedge coke]

Because comics are easy to grab a panel out of context from, and - sadly - because too many superhero fans can be quick to take everything at face value, there are a lot of moments or costumes that get brought up as examples of how WRONG! somebody got Captain America, the Invisible Woman, or whoever, that in-story should have been clearly a character moment, or a joke, or part of a satirical story. So, this is a thread for those. Moments that we typically misremember, or learned wrong from a joke site excerpting one panel. Stuff that people just read wrong for whatever reason.

This is a clear the air thread. Vent and educate.

ArmorCap from the end of Gruenwald's run was humiliating for Captain America. It was a stupid tank full of tricks that he had to wear just to keep going. And, then he died.



That suit Sue wore with keyhole 4 cut out of the top was from a time when she was desperate for her husband to pay attention to her, feeling old and too like a "mom," and had a disembodied spirit of rage and pettiness attacking her brain.



She went overboard and everyone, in-story, reacted as if it was a bad idea, except one horny dude who hoped it meant she'd sleep with him.

Patsy Walker did commit suicide while married to the Son of Satan, but he didn't talk her into it, and he was, clearly, in-story, hurt by it. He was trying to save her. He was trying to save their life/lifestyle. He failed, and even trying, he wasn't the greatest, but he wasn't the devil sitting by her side talking her into it. (And he didn't enslave his former teammate Gargoyle, either; they're joking. They're being jerks to each other because Patsy's hurting bad and they both love her.)

[Chimeratengun]

The more I see Sue's suit in almost every thread the more it becomes "Iconic" like Goblin Queens under boob dress. That was messed up about Patsy but she got better.

[Of Atlantis]

Patsy Walker did commit suicide while married to the Son of Satan, but he didn't talk her into it, and he was, clearly, in-story, hurt by it. He was trying to save her. He was trying to save their life/lifestyle. He failed, and even trying, he wasn't the greatest, but he wasn't the devil sitting by her side talking her into it. (And he didn't enslave his former teammate Gargoyle, either; they're joking. They're being jerks to each other because Patsy's hurting bad and they both love her.)

So few people actually acknowledge this. Even writers simply write Hellstrom off as a simple villain when his character has always really been about overcoming his evil nature.

[ed2962]

You know, when I read the title before I clicked on the first thing I thought was Rorsach from Watchmen where some fans look at him like a bad-ass hero and miss the fact that he acts that way because he is mentally unstable.

One that might work is Millar's Ult Cap. He's kinda single minded/not a broad thinker and Millar meant that as a flaw but some fans took it again as him being bad ass and "realistic".

[KOSLOX]

Danielle Cage with "green eyes" in the Secret Invasion tie in. To this day I see people say that there is a plot hole and that she's a skrull. Here eyes (Iris) weren't "green" they tinted the white of her eye for effect. The entire point of that panel was a B movie style gag to push the who do you trust angle. She was never a Skrull, it was a fairly obvious one off bit.

[CSTowle]

You know, when I read the title before I clicked on the first thing I thought was Rorsach from Watchmen where some fans look at him like a bad-ass hero and miss the fact that he acts that way because he is mentally unstable.

One that might work is Millar's Ult Cap. He's kinda single minded/not a broad thinker and Millar meant that as a flaw but some fans took it again as him being bad ass and "realistic".

It didn't seem like Millar had subtext there, it seemed like he legitimately wanted him to come off as "bad-ass". Regardless, many fans I've talked to saw it that way and enjoyed him. They often cite what I feel is the most cringeworthy Captain America moment I've ever read (and I'm including Cap-Wolf), the "Do you think this letter on my head stands for France?" as their favorite "Ultimates" moment. In their defense, there weren't many other noteworthy or interesting moments in the series.

[Kieran_Frost]

Moonstone's manipulations in Dark Avengers were seen (on face value) as just her sleeping around. Even after Victoria Hand spelt it out "if you can't tell she's manipulating you..." people still think of her as just a sex addict. SMH.

[t hedge coke]

It didn't seem like Millar had subtext there, it seemed like he legitimately wanted him to come off as "bad-ass". Regardless, many fans I've talked to saw it that way and enjoyed him. They often cite what I feel is the most cringeworthy Captain America moment I've ever read (and I'm including Cap-Wolf), the "Do you think this letter on my head stands for France?" as their favorite "Ultimates" moment. In their defense, there weren't many other noteworthy or interesting moments in the series.

I think him screwing up with Jan so bad, and his breaking down and crying to Bucky, "I have no other friends," goes a long way to showing Cap wasn't quite as on the ball as his gung-ho attitude implied.

[Of Atlantis]

It didn't seem like Millar had subtext there, it seemed like he legitimately wanted him to come off as "bad-ass". Regardless, many fans I've talked to saw it that way and enjoyed him. They often cite what I feel is the most cringeworthy Captain America moment I've ever read (and I'm including Cap-Wolf), the "Do you think this letter on my head stands for France?" as their favorite "Ultimates" moment. In their defense, there weren't many other noteworthy or interesting moments in the series.

He was my favourite Ultimate character because I tend to enjoy reading pragmatic types. I felt like given the circumstances, he was a very "real" interpretation of Captain America at the time. I figured, yes, he would be relatively conservative, hard-nosed, opinionated, jaded and hate pretty much everything about modern society.

It's funny because that one line is the line I felt made him seem most like a jingoistic stereotype and I hated it. It single-handedly turned him into a parody. And then Jason Aaron's mini would completely kill the character for me.

[t hedge coke]

He was my favourite Ultimate character because I tend to enjoy reading pragmatic types. I felt like given the circumstances, he was a very "real" interpretation of Captain America at the time. I figured, yes, he would be relatively conservative, hard-nosed, opinionated, jaded and hate pretty much everything about modern society.

I never felt was "more realistic" than the guy we normally have, but I'm judging him against people I know from that generation, and maybe I just know more liberal old folks. I look at family from that generation and they were gay, marched with King, worked with the NAACP, and really put in their time. My grandpa's like ninety-four now and he can recognize Ariana Grande and Flo Rida songs. I like a Cap who's like that, like Waid's Cap, someone who immerses himself earnestly.

And, if I look at Kirby, I see a man constantly refining his sense of justice and fairness, a man with a genuine passion and a humane sensibility, who also valued a good scrap, and kept up with modern trends and entertainment.

But, I like that Ultimate Cap wasn't just Cap transported over. I like a lot of what Millar was doing with him, I'm just not as cynical, I guess, to believe it's more true to life. In this instance, I believe in the superhero. I think Millar would probably agree, though, that it's a more plausible take.

[Of Atlantis]

I never felt was "more realistic" than the guy we normally have, but I'm judging him against people I know from that generation, and maybe I just know more liberal old folks. I look at family from that generation and they were gay, marched with King, worked with the NAACP, and really put in their time. My grandpa's like ninety-four now and he can recognize Ariana Grande and Flo Rida songs. I like a Cap who's like that, like Waid's Cap, someone who immerses himself earnestly.

And, if I look at Kirby, I see a man constantly refining his sense of justice and fairness, a man with a genuine passion and a humane sensibility, who also valued a good scrap, and kept up with modern trends and entertainment.

But, I like that Ultimate Cap wasn't just Cap transported over. I like a lot of what Millar was doing with him, I'm just not as cynical, I guess, to believe it's more true to life. In this instance, I believe in the superhero. I think Millar would probably agree, though, that it's a more plausible take.

Me and you know very different elderly folk then. More realistic may not be the appropriate term. Maybe more plausible? For me anyways. I suppose it varies on a number of factors. For a white, straight male, I generally assume the environment of the 1930s and 40s would be wildly different in terms of their socio political opinions, just given the fact society was "behind the times". Growing old and easing into the modern age is one thing, but being completely transplanted is another.

[Byakko]

He was my favourite Ultimate character because I tend to enjoy reading pragmatic types. I felt like given the circumstances, he was a very "real" interpretation of Captain America at the time. I figured, yes, he would be relatively conservative, hard-nosed, opinionated, jaded and hate pretty much everything about modern society.

It's funny because that one line is the line I felt made him seem most like a jingoistic stereotype and I hated it. It single-handedly turned him into a parody. And then Jason Aaron's mini would completely kill the character for me.

For me, he was one of the more tolerable Ultimate characters, even at his 'worse'.

And I think there was a very, very odd value dissonance not just between Cap and the Ultimates world; but also between writer and reader.

Like the part where Cap is figuring out the twincest thing between Ultimates!Wanda and Pietro, and Jan is acting like it's the most perfectly natural thing in the world "They're in love!", while Cap has a look of dawning shock and horror on his face. And the truly horrible thing is that I think we were suppose to see that as Cap being so old-fashioned and totally accept the twincest.

I don't think not being okay with any kind of incest makes you 'conservative'. I think that whole incident made me realize Cap was the one sane man in the Ultimate universe.

[ed2962]

For me, he was one of the more tolerable Ultimate characters, even at his 'worse'.

And I think there was a very, very odd value dissonance not just between Cap and the Ultimates world; but also between writer and reader.

Like the part where Cap is figuring out the twincest thing between Ultimates!Wanda and Pietro, and Jan is acting like it's the most perfectly natural thing in the world "They're in love!", while Cap has a look of dawning shock and horror on his face. And the truly horrible thing is that I think we were suppose to see that as Cap being so old-fashioned and totally accept the twincest.

I don't think not being okay with any kind of incest makes you 'conservative'. I think that whole incident made me realize Cap was the one sane man in the Ultimate universe.

Actually the exact opposite happened. The news came out and Ult Cap said that he'd seen Wanda and Quicksilver together. Jan was shocked and said why didn't you tell anyone...Ult Cap was like oh I thought that this was normal thing in the modern world now.

[ed2962]

It didn't seem like Millar had subtext there, it seemed like he legitimately wanted him to come off as "bad-ass". Regardless, many fans I've talked to saw it that way and enjoyed him. They often cite what I feel is the most cringeworthy Captain America moment I've ever read (and I'm including Cap-Wolf), the "Do you think this letter on my head stands for France?" as their favorite "Ultimates" moment. In their defense, there weren't many other noteworthy or interesting moments in the series.

He was a genuine bad ass, but Millar I thought kinda wrote him as a dumb jock. It's one thing to have different values, but it seemed like his reaction to every third thing was to hit someone and go rogue ( I'm exaggerating a little). And his actions in New Ultimates didn't even make sense to me ( Red Skull arc)

[chamber-music]

It didn't seem like Millar had subtext there, it seemed like he legitimately wanted him to come off as "bad-ass". Regardless, many fans I've talked to saw it that way and enjoyed him. They often cite what I feel is the most cringeworthy Captain America moment I've ever read (and I'm including Cap-Wolf), the "Do you think this letter on my head stands for France?" as their favorite "Ultimates" moment. In their defense, there weren't many other noteworthy or interesting moments in the series.

The best thing about that was Ed Brubaker's rumoured response with the Captain America #3 issue when Steve talks about his time with the French Resistance and how he saw ordinary French people risking their lives to take on the Nazis.