SM/WW #18 Preview/Discussion

[Lax]

Huh? I don't see the significance, especially if one pays attention to context. Diana was freely invited because Clark is at a point in his life when he's okay with his powers. From what he told Diana, it was because Lana cared about him and reacted so well to his powers that he was able to develop the more open outlook that Diana is essentially benefiting from now.

One day Lana followed me--discovered the shelter--forced me to come out and play. Forced me to just be me. Hearing from someone my own age instead of my parents for the first time that it was okay to be different kinda made all the difference.

He's not okay with his powers, they are letting him down for unknown reasons which has lead him to question who he is yet again.

What is "force" in this context? Discovery. Once Lana discovered the secret there was no possbility of hiding anymore. It's significant that he did not open up to Lana of his own volition because that is a habit he has maintained throughout the course of his life. Wonder Woman is an extraordinary case. Unlike Lana she doesn't "benefit" from information about his alien heritage, that was her starting point, she "benefits" from knowing about his human background because that's the aspect of his life she is farthest removed from.

[Auguste Dupin]

All in all I think the book was ok. Nothing too great outside of the art. I put it roughly with Batman/Superman but minus the brand of voice capturing dialog that Pak has. Both are well below Action Comics and it's blistering start out of the gate.

But with that said I really liked the insight into Clark's life (bit of a re stating but still good). I really enjoyed proto-fortress in his granddad's bomb shelter. I liked Lana's presence in all of this. She was only seen once but felt all throughout this issue like a single vibrating tone.

I'm wishing they'd turned this into a super mystery sort of vibe to it. While there are mystery elements in this. It's only lip service. Hardly a hook. But then again that's not what it set out to be. But then the question becomes what does this book want to be in this Truth arc? We know what Action Comics wants to be about and what Batman wants to be about in both theme and how they go about it. This book is more shaky and unconfidant

Having them either fawn over each other or shake the mighty "will they break up" stick around is so over and done with. I hope they take this opportunity to breath more life into this book. Maybe ask harder questions than just this surface area stuff. Maybe make the adventure bigger or even smaller, but not this run of the mill middle ground stuff.

How does one truly take advantage of the stage set by Truth with this book? This is an ok start, but to what I don't really feel like I know (and not in an interesting way. See JLA for that IMO)

Well, to be fair, I'm guessing Tomasi wasn't as involved in the elaboration of Truth as Pak and Yang were. But it's true that it feels a bit like a third wheel compared to the other two.
I suppose the most logical angle would be how "Truth" affects their relationship. But I think it's not as compelling because only Clark has been affected by the change in status quo.For instance, even though Batman/Superman was told pretty much entirely from Superman's perspective, it was the confrontation of Truth Clark to the Post Endgame Batman world that made most of the story. Otherwise, the story would have been "hey Clark, you're in trouble, buddy? Let me help you". Which is pretty much what SM/WW is so far, while a confrontation of status quo would have been more interesting, I think. Then again, it's not Tomasi's fault if Diana didn't change all that much.

[Auguste Dupin]

Action Comics' start to Truth was just about perfect. Pak says he's been building to the point of writing this Superman from some time now. He says it's a very natural progression for him. I've since gone back to verify that, and I can actually confirm this in a few ways thematically.

Where Action really excels and this comic falls is in it's strong sense of self.

I think it's quite meaningful that both his runs on BM/SM and Action Comics started with T shirt and Jeans Superman.

[Superlad93]

Well, to be fair, I'm guessing Tomasi wasn't as involved in the elaboration of Truth as Pak and Yang were. But it's true that it feels a bit like a third wheel compared to the other two.

Well Pak and Yang talk an awful lot about how they had the big meeting and everyone was there etc. But even without that I feel like Tomasi should be skilled enough to turn the arc into his advantage, and make interesting and unique story from it. I always point to Morrison when I wanna give an example of a writer making the best out of a situation he's put in. Electric blue Superman came along with power unlike the man of steel. What did Morrison do? Give him that idea it's best showing ever. Hawkman can't be used. What does Morrison do? Creates a cult classic character that it's hold underground popularity to this day. The list goes on.

My point is that when you come into the monthly comic big two world you must roll with the punches. You've gotta think on your feet. Morrison calls it a "live performance". Tomasi should make the absolute most of the situation he is put as opposed to just keeping safe.

I suppose the most logical angle would be how "Truth" affects their relationship. But I think it's not as compelling because only Clark has been affected by the change in status quo.For instance, even though Batman/Superman was told pretty much entirely from Superman's perspective, it was the confrontation of Truth Clark to the Post Endgame Batman world that made most of the story.

Yes! Batman/Superman is on new and uneasy ground. It's interesting. It has something to grab you. It almost parallels Pak's first issue but with Batman coming in to think Superman is the criminal. An almost militant Batman meets a rebel element Superman. My hope is that Pak has enough freedom in the Bat world to really dig into this new Batman. But with that first issue I enjoyed how little we saw of him. We never humanized him. He was more of a thing than anything else. My hope is that we expand on that and flesh the character out in this setting alongside Superman (with his new found resolve)

Otherwise, the story would have been "hey Clark, you're in trouble, buddy? Let me help you". Which is pretty much what SM/WW is so far, while a confrontation of status quo would have been more interesting, I think. Then again, it's not Tomasi's fault if Diana didn't change all that much.

If they want to go with the "how does this impact the relationship" then I expect more than just asking if they'll break up or him having a shoulder to cry on. Talk about something of more substance than just how much they're into each other or will they wont they stuff. It's almost a parody of itself at this point.

That stuff with Lois and Diana? I hope they dig into that (Pak did Tomasi a solid with that one, because it's the only hook I have for this book right now). But even after this arc what is the true identity of this book aside from "Superman and Wonder Woman fight stuff and kiss on occasion"? It doesn't need to be the sort of hard hitting commentary I'd find ideal, but it must at least be something more.

[Superlad93]

I think it's quite meaningful that both his runs on BM/SM and Action Comics started with T shirt and Jeans Superman.

Take a look at issue 25 and issue 41. Clark's words in 25 are "like flying but better" and his words in 41 are "it's not flying but it'll have to do". There are few more nods and thematic sync ups in there too. Pak know what he's doing, I feel.

[Flash Gordon]

Action Comics' start to Truth was just about perfect. Pak says he's been building to the point of writing this Superman from some time now. He says it's a very natural progression for him. I've since gone back to verify that, and I can actually confirm this in a few ways thematically.

Where Action really excels and this comic falls is in it's strong sense of self.

With the start of Truth in SM/WW I don't feel anything from it. I like a lot of the ideas in this book but it's only ever half cocked. I feel like they're throwing away the opportunity and platform that this book and this arc in particular gives them. It usually falls in at generic comic that features Superman and Wonder Woman in it.

For sure.

ACTION COMICS, for all its faults, has a real self-important and bombastic hyper reality to it- which only enhances the experience and really sells the book. I loved the EARTH 2 stuff in BATMAN/SUPERMAN so I knew that this was the Superman that Pak REALLY wanted to write about, and I don't blame him. It's the Superman I'd want to write about too, aside from the all powerful Silver Age Superman (which appeals to me).

I guess the main reason for my disdain of this book is the huge missed opportunity of it all. I'm not a fan of the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing but if you're going to go that route, commit to it. Tell the biggest and best stories you can for this power couple. Nobody has done that yet at all. There are a lot of interesting roads that can be traveled with a Clark and Diana relationship that are just being ignored in favor of the mundane. We're talking about the Last Son of Krypton, a real life sun god, sleeping with the Princess of Peace and the God of War. Do something fun with it man!

Maybe Tomasi will, in time, but this is not a good effort.

[Sacred Knight]

I liked it quite a bit. Is it Action, no. But I didn't expect it to be. The art was the best its been since this creative team took over, some cool insight into Clark's early life, a genuinely surprise ending, and nothing wrong with either characterization. Only complaint would be really that Diana was just along for the ride in this issue. But to defend that as well, that was kinda the point. She's the listening ear in this particular issue, the "sentinel" just as she described herself in the beginning of the issue.

But, where this is going with the theme of secrets is obvious; Diana has one, one that Clark won't like. How to judge that however is impossible until such time as I know what that secret is. I'm still sticking to my original theory that she helped Lois out the identity somehow, but that's far from a sure thing.

Choosing to ignore the original first interactions between WW and Lana in Doomed was odd, though. I didn't remember right off the bat that the had met before, but something in the back of my mind told me that they had when I read that page. But I'll be honest, for some reason still the whole "rocket in the barn" goof from JL bugs me more, lol.

[Black Angel]

Solid issue no lie love the art. I am a bit confused i thought di and lana met already or at least had a talk hmmmmmm. I love how these old guys in smallville take a crisis with that honey badger mentality. Or maybe its because they know clark when he was a child. So i guess in the next issue we are gonna get that lois and diana talk that was mentioned in BM/SM i can't wait.

Well people can't say they weren't intimate on page anymore.

[Sacred Knight]

Speaking of Smallville, I adore how its portrayed now. It has this Twin Peaks kinda vibe to it. A strange and unusual town of whom residents are just a little strange and unusual and completely used to it. But they're still good people.

[Superlad93]

For sure.

ACTION COMICS, for all its faults, has a real self-important and bombastic hyper reality to it- which only enhances the experience and really sells the book. I loved the EARTH 2 stuff in BATMAN/SUPERMAN so I knew that this was the Superman that Pak REALLY wanted to write about, and I don't blame him. It's the Superman I'd want to write about too, aside from the all powerful Silver Age Superman (which appeals to me).

He's a pretty versatile writer when it comes to Superman. From the situations he puts him in to the emotions he draws out of him. Pak seems to be able to write Superman at any level because he knows that he's not writing the powers but the man. If you do that then everything else comes simply. But his current Superman and the one in BM/SM and issue 25 of Action have this exhale sort of feel to them. there's a more natural and relaxed fit to him.

I guess the main reason for my disdain of this book is the huge missed opportunity of it all. I'm not a fan of the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing but if you're going to go that route, commit to it. Tell the biggest and best stories you can for this power couple. Nobody has done that yet at all. There are a lot of interesting roads that can be traveled with a Clark and Diana relationship that are just being ignored in favor of the mundane. We're talking about the Last Son of Krypton, a real life sun god, sleeping with the Princess of Peace and the God of War. Do something fun with it man!

Maybe Tomasi will, in time, but this is not a good effort.

We may just be on the same wavelength with the handling of the relationship. Tell me, have you taken a look at my thread TALES FROM THE DCYOU: WHAT SORT OF STORIES DO YOU WANNA SEE?? If not then please have a look. I give a rundown of the sort of stuff I wanna see out of Superman and Wonder Woman relationship. I'm wondering what you'd have to say about it. Hit me up in the PM if you have a lot to say since I don't wanna derail the thread.

http://community.comicbookresources....-you-wanna-see

I just feel like DC had the worlds ear bent. This relationship was on good morning America for goodness sake. It's gotten so much buzz and press good or bad. One way or the other everyone was paying attention. So why not have something to actually say and show? What I've seen so far is the equivalent of hold the mic and the only whispering into it. Good but simply generic when it's all said and done.

[Auguste Dupin]

[QUOTE]

Well Pak and Yang talk an awful lot about how they had the big meeting and everyone was there etc. But even without that I feel like Tomasi should be skilled enough to turn the arc into his advantage, and make interesting and unique story from it. I always point to Morrison when I wanna give an example of a writer making the best out of a situation he's put in. Electric blue Superman came along with power unlike the man of steel. What did Morrison do? Give him that idea it's best showing ever. Hawkman can't be used. What does Morrison do? Creates a cult classic character that it's hold underground popularity to this day. The list goes on.

My point is that when you come into the monthly comic big two world you must roll with the punches. You've gotta think on your feet. Morrison calls it a "live performance". Tomasi should make the absolute most of the situation he is put as opposed to just keeping safe.

I agree, obviously, especially when you compare it to Morrison on JLA. That being said, not every one is as comfortable as he was doing it.
Also, I'm sure Tomasi was in the reunion, but I don't know if it was his idea the way it's obviously Pak's (and probably Yang's). Which doesn't excuse everything of course.

Yes! Batman/Superman is on new and uneasy ground. It's interesting. It has something to grab you. It almost parallels Pak's first issue but with Batman coming in to think Superman is the criminal. An almost militant Batman meets a rebel element Superman. My hope is that Pak has enough freedom in the Bat world to really dig into this new Batman. But with that first issue I enjoyed how little we saw of him. We never humanized him. He was more of a thing than anything else. My hope is that we expand on that and flesh the character out in this setting alongside Superman (with his new found resolve)

Yeah, the deshumanization of the new Batman was interesting, and their first meeting actually kinda inverts Pak's first issue, with Superman as the underdog who must use his wits to stay in the game, and Batman as the unstoppable Juggernaut who tanks everything. Plus, the whole "Robocop" thing makes for a good contrast for this Superman, and his "rebel with a cause" attitude.
That being said, I was actually a bit disapointed by his lack of presence, because I was hoping to use BM/SM to get a feel on the new Batman.Ho, well.

If they want to go with the "how does this impact the relationship" then I expect more than just asking if they'll break up or him having a shoulder to cry on. Talk about something of more substance than just how much they're into each other or will they wont they stuff. It's almost a parody of itself at this point.

That stuff with Lois and Diana? I hope they dig into that (Pak did Tomasi a solid with that one, because it's the only hook I have for this book right now). But even after this arc what is the true identity of this book aside from "Superman and Wonder Woman fight stuff and kiss on occasion"? It doesn't need to be the sort of hard hitting commentary I'd find ideal, but it must at least be something more.

Obviously, especially since they've been playing the whole "testing the relationship"a bit too much. They should have kept it for moments like this.
But I suppose some things could be done about the whole "depowered" thing, with Clark being closer to human that he's ever been, when the implied hook between them was that they found a connection in the fact that there's nothing quite like them, and the power dynamic shifting, with a Wonder Woman clearly being the stronger of the two now. But that would have been much cooler had Diana actually become a full god living on Olympus or something. You know, how would a Clark that fell down to Earth and a Diana that live in the sky would interact with one another.

[Superlad93]

Speaking of Smallville, I adore how its portrayed now. It has this Twin Peaks kinda vibe to it. A strange and unusual town of whom residents are just a little strange and unusual and completely used to it. But they're still good people.

Yeah!! I was shaky on the idea of giving Smallville a supernatural edge to it at first, but then the I just chanted my mantra "in Pak we trust" and it all worked out! It's kept it's small town feel but it's got that slight creepy vibe that sheds a new light and relevance on to it.

I like that Tomasi drew some attention to that in this issue with the old men and Santiago and Takahara. Add another one up to the Pak win category along with Kentville!!

[Auguste Dupin]

Take a look at issue 25 and issue 41. Clark's words in 25 are "like flying but better" and his words in 41 are "it's not flying but it'll have to do". There are few more nods and thematic sync ups in there too. Pak know what he's doing, I feel.

Yeah, I noticed that one. It's also probably not a coincidence that, just when Clark is back in his jeans, those cyber Neo Nazis come back to fight him.
Part of me has a little fun picturing Pak being totally jealous of Morrison for coming up with the T shirt and Jeans Superman idea,first. It just really feels like he connects well with the idea.

[Superlad93]

I agree, obviously, especially when you compare it to Morrison on JLA. That being said, not every one is as comfortable as he was doing it.

True the Morrison comparison is a bit unfair. Lets hope he finds his legs soon enough though.

Yeah, the deshumanization of the new Batman was interesting, and their first meeting actually kinda inverts Pak's first issue, with Superman as the underdog who must use his wits to stay in the game, and Batman as the unstoppable Juggernaut who tanks everything. Plus, the whole "Robocop" thing makes for a good contrast for this Superman, and his "rebel with a cause" attitude.
That being said, I was actually a bit disapointed by his lack of presence, because I was hoping to use BM/SM to get a feel on the new Batman.Ho, well.

I think Pak could have still pushed Batman as this dehumanized force AND still have given us a better feel for the new Batman, but then again you must remember that Snyder run that ship and it's a tight one. Notice how we didn't even get confirmation on if Alfred's had is there or not in this that issue. I'm very excited for next issue though!

Obviously, especially since they've been playing the whole "testing the relationship"a bit too much. They should have kept it for moments like this.
But I suppose some things could be done about the whole "depowered" thing, with Clark being closer to human that he's ever been, when the implied hook between them was that they found a connection in the fact that there's nothing quite like them, and the power dynamic shifting, with a Wonder Woman clearly being the stronger of the two now. But that would have been much cooler had Diana actually become a full god living on Olympus or something. You know, how would a Clark that fell down to Earth and a Diana that live in the sky would interact with one another.

That's a pretty interesting idea! Clark's lessened powers making him feel closer to the people than ever before and he seems to even be enjoying it more than he imagined if not for the situation he's been put in. The contrast between Superman and Wonder Woman at this point would be great.

I keep wanting to see how this may play with insecurity in Clark's case and alienation in Wonder Woman's case. Very real human emotions at the core of these ideas. Fun ideas could have been made like the gods finding a loophole to break them up. Like issuing a challenge to Superman for Wonder Woman's hand. This would play on his sense of worthiness and may even shake Wonder Woman. She's never seen him this fragile or desperate. It must be off putting and more than a bit awkward to see. Her words to the dying from Tomasi's first issue could be in the back of his mind.

Real relationship issues (feeling of inadequacy, alienation, drifting interest etc) and feeling could be expressed and and fleshed out with a super hero flourish in this book. Hope we get it.

[Superlad93]

Yeah, I noticed that one. It's also probably not a coincidence that, just when Clark is back in his jeans, those cyber Neo Nazis come back to fight him.
Part of me has a little fun picturing Pak being totally jealous of Morrison for coming up with the T shirt and Jeans Superman idea,first. It just really feels like he connects well with the idea.

Lol yeah. That may very well have been part of the reason Pak came on at first. Pak does seem to have a big love and admiration for Morrison's work, but it's not an unintentional parody or a missing of the point like Lobdell's usage of Morrison ideas. Pak seems to only use the aspects of the work that he has a real connection to, and even then he really makes it mean his own thing rather than rerunning Morrison's work.