Discussion with Tom Brevoort on Spider-Man marriage

[Lee]

I'm sorry that a different take on a character doesn't work for you.

You never answered the question though. Is there anything intrinsic and exclusive to Mary Jane that makes her the one and only best confidant for Spider-Man? Or is it purely a case of longevity, as you mentioned earlier?

[DCordo74]

perhaps but coming at it from a writer’s perspective, you build elements for certain reasons. if you go with a youthful single character, it’s for a narrative reason (i would hope) and the reasons have been stated clearly. like any creative choice, it’s open to debate but we had a thread here a while ago with writer’s opinions on this topic and while it was mixed, the majority of writers were on the anti-marriage side.

i have no problems with mj fans saying they miss her and that she was an important part of the book for them. can’t say a bad thing about that. but when it’s pitched as character development and best for the book, they have to be able to back that up and explain why they aren’t asking for any other form of development. why the fixation on mj? do they want development or do they want mj? are they rationalising mj to give the argument more weight?

I get that. I understand that Marvel does what they feel is best for their character in long run. And you gotta respect that. I disagree that MJ is at fault. But, I can't do anything except not buy the comic. Which I sadly do not anymore. I did buy RYV because it peaked my curiosity. And I thought Slott did a good job showcasing MJ and Peter's relationship. I adore her as a character. I do think she's the only one who Peter should be married to, they were married for two decades. And when they were written well it improved the comic and Peter's character in my eyes. And as a supporting character, her job is to add to Peter's character, and I think she does that nicely. I grew up with a married Spider-man. The two started out as a pair for me and that's how I'll always see them. She made the comic seem more approachable as a female comic book reader. I loved that Spider-man had a fun, strong, kick-ass, smart, savvy, hilarious and flawed wife. Like **** like this....

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made me love them. But I'm a romantic at heart so...

But hey Marvel's gonna do, what Marvel's gonna do.

[Vortex85]

You never answered the question though. Is there anything intrinsic and exclusive to Mary Jane that makes her the one and only best confidant for Spider-Man? Or is it purely a case of longevity, as you mentioned earlier?

What is exclusive to Mary Jane as the best confidant for Peter is the level of LOVE they have and share between each other that has never been shown either of them with anyone else. Nevermind that she is the one woman he has married as the main part of the book that cannot be replaced by anyone else since Marvel will not let Peter marry again. Anyone else replacing MJ in Peter's life is in my mind reprehensable from a historical perspective. I believe the words shown below.



'

[boots]

I get that. I understand that Marvel does what they feel is best for their character in long run. And you gotta respect that. I disagree that MJ is at fault. But, I can't do anything except not buy the comic. Which I sadly do not anymore. I did buy RYV because it peaked my curiosity. And I thought Slott did a good job showcasing MJ and Peter's relationship. I adore her as a character. I do think she's the only one who Peter should be married to, they were married for two decades. And when they were written well it improved the comic and Peter's character in my eyes. And as a supporting character, her job is to add to Peter's character, and I think she does that nicely. I grew up with a married Spider-man. The two started out as a pair for me and that's how I'll always see them. She made the comic seem more approachable as a female comic book reader. I loved that Spider-man had a fun, strong, kick-ass, smart, savvy, hilarious and flawed wife. Like **** like this....

made me love them. But I'm a romantic at heart so...

But hey Marvel's gonna do, what Marvel's gonna do.

totally valid to feel that way, i’ve been emotionally attached to elements of spidey that marvel ditched as well. i grew up with their marriage too, but for some reason it didn’t have the same effect on me. like you say marvel’s gonna do what marvel’s gonna do.

you bring up a great point on top of that- times have changed and publishers and studios should be responding to market demographics. movie studios are stupidly ignoring their female audiences (why did sex and the city and 50 shades do so well? it wasn’t quality). dan slott has previously posted here that spider-man has a surprisingly high female readership, though i don’t know how he gauges that.

it’s a challenge for marvel to provide that approachable element for potential female spidey readers.

my question: is mj the only or even the best way for marvel to address this?

[boots]

What is exclusive to Mary Jane as the best confidant for Peter is the level of LOVE they have and share between each other that has never been shown either of them with anyone else. Nevermind that she is the one woman he has married as the main part of the book that cannot be replaced by anyone else since Marvel will not let Peter marry again. Anyone else replacing MJ in Peter's life is in my mind reprehensable from a historical perspective. I believe the words shown below.

i get where you’re coming from mate, but that still isn’t answering the man’s question.

[Vortex85]

i get where you’re coming from mate, but that still isn’t answering the man’s question.

Well, it should make her his BEST confident. I didn't say only. He has other confidants as well. Anna Maria currently serves as one. But it means much more when your confident is your best friend and the love of your life, so that makes it better when it is MJ.

[Spider-Tiger]

You never answered the question though. Is there anything intrinsic and exclusive to Mary Jane that makes her the one and only best confidant for Spider-Man? Or is it purely a case of longevity, as you mentioned earlier?

Within the 616 universe, or in media adaptations/alternate realities? Because in media adaptations/alternate realities you could do most anything. What is so integral to Aunt May that we couldn't just give her role to someone else. Another relative of Peter's with a different backstory/personality/occupation. After all, that character in the ultimate universe isn't much like the character that Lee/Ditko created. Longevity and iconography will always be major factors. You can rewrite comic book continuity, but you can't rewrite history.

[boots]

Well, it should make her his BEST confident. I didn't say only. He has other confidants as well. Anna Maria currently serves as one. But it means much more when your confident is your best friend and the love of your life, so that makes it better when it is MJ.

yeah, but you’re talking very generally at the moment. because of their “love” and “history”. it’s not specific to mj, it’s specific to the situation.

as an example, because i’m being forced to watch them (and yeah, i’m enjoying them too now), harry potter and the concept of a foil.

neville longbottom was conceived as the perfect foil for harry potter because he is cowardly and untalented (harry’s opposite qualities) but he has a whole range of similarities: parents murdered by voldemort, raised by relatives, same age and school. the writer cleverly wove this in to the actual narrative by creating a heroic prophecy that could be applied to either character. the point of neville as harry’s foil is to show what harry could have been by simple twist of fate. that’s why neville works so perfectly as harry’s foil and not ron or hermione .

you wouldn’t say that he is a great foil for harry because of their “friendship” or their co education or the time they have spent together.

[DCordo74]

totally valid to feel that way, i’ve been emotionally attached to elements of spidey that marvel ditched as well. i grew up with their marriage too, but for some reason it didn’t have the same effect on me. like you say marvel’s gonna do what marvel’s gonna do.

you bring up a great point on top of that- times have changed and publishers and studios should be responding to market demographics. movie studios are stupidly ignoring their female audiences (why did sex and the city and 50 shades do so well? it wasn’t quality). dan slott has previously posted here that spider-man has a surprisingly high female readership, though i don’t know how he gauges that.

it’s a challenge for marvel to provide that approachable element for potential female spidey readers.

my question: is mj the only or even the best way for marvel to address this?

I think Spider-Gwen, Silk, and Spider-woman are great female centric spider comics.

No, I don't think Mary Jane is the only way to go about that. I do think she's the best love interest for Peter and she helped me get into his comic. She's my second favorite spider-man character after Peter (obviously). But I can't speak for everyone. I love her because she manages to be fun and kick ass. But most importantly (for me as a woman) she's flawed. She was a female character that was taken seriously. There are moments where she falls victim to sexism. When she waits by the window for Peter in lingerie for five issues in a row, when she's slut shamed by the creators, when she's blamed for Harry's drug addiction, etc. But for most of her existence she was shown to be flawed. And those type of female characters are rare, that's changing ever so slightly. But MJ's been like that since her debut. She rejected Peter twice because she had commitment issues. She would reduce herself to little more than a party girl. She didn't feel like she was a good enough actress, even though that's something she's always wanted. She closed the door to help her friend. She had so much confidence that the first time she met Peter she told him, HE was lucky to get to know HER. Which is incredible. She's fun and shamelessly flirty. Until the 90s she wasn't ever really overtly objectified. She was progressive in the 60s-70s and managed to grab the readers instantly. She has iconic lines, an iconic kiss, an iconic introduction, and an iconic place in the comic. Most of the Mary Jane fans I interact with are women. Not all, but a good majority. If Marvel attempted to promote her more and if she was faithfully adapted to the big screen; I have no doubt she would make a splash. But again, I can't speak for anyone but myself.

[Vortex85]

yeah, but you’re talking very generally at the moment. because of their “love” and “history”. it’s not specific to mj, it’s specific to the situation.

as an example, because i’m being forced to watch them (and yeah, i’m enjoying them too now), harry potter and the concept of a foil.

neville longbottom was conceived as the perfect foil for harry potter because he is cowardly and untalented (harry’s opposite qualities) but he has a whole range of similarities: parents murdered by voldemort, raised by relatives, same age and school. the writer cleverly wove this in to the actual narrative by creating a heroic prophecy that could be applied to either character. the point of neville as harry’s foil is to show what harry could have been by simple twist of fate. that’s why neville works so perfectly as harry’s foil and not ron or hermione .

you wouldn’t say that he is a great foil for harry because of their “friendship” or their co education or the time they have spent together.

OK, I see where you are coming from. If you want to get technical I guess something that makes MJ a very good confident is that she is very much like Peter in that both of them wore masks. She wore a mask as a party girl and he wore a mask as Spider-Man. They both are very good at keeping secrets and hiding things, and they both have disfuncitonal pasts, but in opposite ways. MJ abused by parents as a child, but popular and loved among peers. Peter abused by peers, but loved by parents. In this way they have a unique bond that makes them better at understanding what it is like to be in the other's shoes. But they are also different and compliment each other as ying and yang. MJ being a seeker of attention and thrills, yet she ends of living life more in the shadows, and Peter being more reserved and in the shadows, but ends up living a life more of action and thrills.

I can't say this makes her the best confident for Peter, but the way they can connect as a conceptual level in certain deeper ways, yet be very different in personality, helps them compliment each other by having different perspectives without being boring by being the same person.

[boots]

I think Spider-Gwen, Silk, and Spider-woman are great female centric spider comics.

No, I don't think Mary Jane is the only way to go about that. I do think she's the best love interest for Peter and she helped me get into his comic. She's my second favorite spider-man character after Peter (obviously). But I can't speak for everyone. I love her because she manages to be fun and kick ass. But most importantly (for me as a woman) she's flawed. She was a female character that was taken seriously. There are moments where she falls victim to sexism. When she waits by the window for Peter in lingerie for five issues in a row, when she's slut shamed by the creators, when she's blamed for Harry's drug addiction, etc. But for most of her existence she was shown to be flawed. And those type of female characters are rare, that's changing ever so slightly. But MJ's been like that since her debut. She rejected Peter twice because she had commitment issues. She would reduce herself to little more than a party girl. She didn't feel like she was a good enough actress, even though that's something she's always wanted. She closed the door to help her friend. She had so much confidence that the first time she met Peter she told him, HE was lucky to get to know HER. Which is incredible. She's fun and shamelessly flirty. Until the 90s she wasn't ever really overtly objectified. She was progressive in the 60s-70s and managed to grab the readers instantly. She has iconic lines, an iconic kiss, an iconic introduction, and an iconic place in the comic. Most of the Mary Jane fans I interact with are women. Not all, but a good majority. If Marvel attempted to promote her more and if she was faithfully adapted to the big screen; I have no doubt she would make a splash. But again, I can't speak for anyone but myself.

maybe i missed out on the progressive mj and just got 80s and 90s big hair version that left almost zero impression on me. and while your description sounds like a great character (that i never met), i don’t know about how heavily that needs to be involved in spidey’s status quo. or in what manner, let’s say.

i don’t know about flawed female characters being rare. i’d almost say the vast majority are flawed, just not flawed in a way that teaches us anything positive. it’s more about laying judgement or making the male character seem stronger/more heroic by contrast.

[Kevinroc]

You never answered the question though. Is there anything intrinsic and exclusive to Mary Jane that makes her the one and only best confidant for Spider-Man? Or is it purely a case of longevity, as you mentioned earlier?

Within the 616 universe, or in media adaptations/alternate realities? Because in media adaptations/alternate realities you could do most anything. What is so integral to Aunt May that we couldn't just give her role to someone else. Another relative of Peter's with a different backstory/personality/occupation. After all, that character in the ultimate universe isn't much like the character that Lee/Ditko created. Longevity and iconography will always be major factors. You can rewrite comic book continuity, but you can't rewrite history.

This is pretty much the answer. It's why the Amazing films killed Gwen Stacy. It's why the marketing for the big Spider-Man story of Secret Wars was of Peter and Mary Jane's relationship (and while that is certainly a major factor in that story, it is not the only factor). Longevity and iconography are always important when discussing these characters.

[Vortex85]

Just on topic with the confidant thing. This was just an example I happend to find in my scans of MJ helping Peter by suggesting he let himself be hit by an opponent to let him get worked up to be able to attack back, something he kind of laughed at and shrugged off. But then in a battle with Electro, he rememberd MJ's words and it helped him win they day.

Not saying this makes her the best confidant either. But it was a fun example of her being one that I thought I'd throw in here.

[boots]

OK, I see where you are coming from. If you want to get technical I guess something that makes MJ a very good confident is that she is very much like Peter in that both of them wore masks. She wore a mask as a party girl and he wore a mask as Spider-Man. They both are very good at keeping secrets and hiding things, and they both have disfuncitonal pasts, but in opposite ways. MJ abused by parents as a child, but popular and loved among peers. Peter abused by peers, but loved by parents. In this way they have a unique bond that makes them better at understanding what it is like to be in the other's shoes. But they are also different and compliment each other as ying and yang. MJ being a seeker of attention and thrills, yet she ends of living life more in the shadows, and Peter being more reserved and in the shadows, but ends up living a life more of action and thrills.

I can't say this makes her the best confident for Peter, but the way they can connect as a conceptual level in certain deeper ways, yet be very different in personality, helps them compliment each other by having different perspectives without being boring by being the same person.

cool, i don’t know her character as well as you do, so i’ll just take everything you say in good faith.

i’ve never heard that contrast between their upbringing and social lives before; it’s a great point, but it needs to also be utilised otherwise it’s a dead connection. it’s a bit fishy to me that having read the book fairly regularly for more than a decade as a kid, that it wasn’t used to better effect.

similarly with the mask thing. i didn’t see much beyond telling peter that the brave things he was doing were too dangerous( which is a massive hollywood female cliché). i’m guessing it’s because she grew beyond the need for her mask- but if peter hasn’t grown beyond his- that should be a constant source or tension or drama or cook in some sort of way. once you do away with her mask, you do away with that symbiosis.

[Kevinroc]

One of the best "MJ as confidant" scenes was ironically from one of the Spider-Marriage's biggest detractors, Roger Stern. Peter is telling MJ about how Ned Leeds was the Hobgoblin and how he died, and MJ asks how that was possible if Ned was supposed to be the super powered Hobgoblin. Peter realizes that MJ has a point, and that leads to the reveal of the Hobgoblin as Roderick Kingsley.