VS!: The Great "Runaways" or "Young Avengers" Debate!

[America / Bucky / Russia]

I dunno about that, a lot of people were very annoyed he was missing from Gillen's run. Personally, I never liked Patriot, but not because he was straight or black, but because he was this black teen stereotype with the drugs and the attitude. Then, he never really got a comeupance for being a drug user because of the way that series was so quick and short lived.

Didn't Marvel not let him use him for whatever reason? I'm kind of glad, actually. When the team broke up at the end of Children's Crusade he was the first one to go, right? It shows that not everyone wants to return to their old life - which is real life. Had Gillen copied the old team it would have been lame. What would make the series distinctive?

[Pav]

They do it on TV too, where people on sitcoms will sometimes say "OMG" ("Oh-em-gee") or put "hashtag" in front of things.

Kids don't talk like that, but the writers of sitcoms and comics are middle-aged, so they write they way they think "cool" kids talk. It's like in the '70s, white writers decided they wanted to be up-to-date on writing black characters, so they wrote their dialogue in "jive talk" that no actual black person ever said.

You'd be surprised. As someone who subs at the middle school/high school level, I hear kids using "OMG" and "hashtag _____" pretty often.

-Pav, who told some fifth graders to #quietdown on multiple occasions...

[skyvolt2000]

Didn't Marvel not let him use him for whatever reason? I'm kind of glad, actually. When the team broke up at the end of Children's Crusade he was the first one to go, right? It shows that not everyone wants to return to their old life - which is real life. Had Gillen copied the old team it would have been lame. What would make the series distinctive?

Would it have been lamer than teams like Teen Titans and Justice League and others who have the same roster almost every series?

The issue with Eli is there was no closure just bye and run away. He just quits after all the crap his grandfather went through? Where is the scene where whatever version of Captain America goes and rips him a new anus for being a quitter.

And folks feared the plans Marvel claimed was Avenger Snuffest (Arena), Especially after Mettle's demise. Folks are tired of that excuse of plans that never happen. I mean if ANYONE should have an issue with Falcon in that suit it would be him.

[BroHomo]

Would it have been lamer than teams like Teen Titans and Justice League and others who have the same roster almost every series?

The issue with Eli is there was no closure just bye and run away. He just quits after all the crap his grandfather went through? Where is the scene where whatever version of Captain America goes and rips him a new anus for being a quitter.

And folks feared the plans Marvel claimed was Avenger Snuffest (Arena), Especially after Mettle's demise. Folks are tired of that excuse of plans that never happen. I mean if ANYONE should have an issue with Falcon in that suit it would be him.

I feel like a lot of black comic book characters are never written with an actual black person in mind. Like the character is shaded darker, but the voice is always coming from a person who either A) Never acknowledges they are black B) given another ethnicity to remind people they are still in fact not white, but still sorta of stereotype-y as they seem always shouting out native language sayings. (Madre Dios! ) C) Given some other handle so the writer can write them as that: Eli: Drug User, Prodigy: Bi, Synch: Dead

They do it on TV too, where people on sitcoms will sometimes say "OMG" ("Oh-em-gee") or put "hashtag" in front of things.

Kids don't talk like that, but the writers of sitcoms and comics are middle-aged, so they write they way they think "cool" kids talk. It's like in the '70s, white writers decided they wanted to be up-to-date on writing black characters, so they wrote their dialogue in "jive talk" that no actual black person ever said.

#youtalkinsmackturkey ?

[Kieran_Frost]

I really enjoyed Gen Hope. Transonic is best.

At the very least, were you happy when Transonic showed up in Young Avengers?

If you're referring to Wiccan -- he's never been the leader. Heinberg's self-insert? Maybe.
He was most certainly the focal character in the Children's Crusade (but Kate was the appointed leader) and the team is technically disbanded in Gillen's run, so his involvement is less "leader" and more "I have to clean up the mess I made". I still feel an argument could be made that Loki is actually the focal character in Gillen's run, whereas Billy is his pawn.

Yeah, Wiccan's never been the leader. I always find it interesting he never got hate when he never got a story or when his romances was never really depicted; but the moment he gets an arc, the moment they kiss... suddenly the hate piles in.

Didn't Marvel not let him use him for whatever reason? I'm kind of glad, actually. When the team broke up at the end of Children's Crusade he was the first one to go, right? It shows that not everyone wants to return to their old life - which is real life. Had Gillen copied the old team it would have been lame. What would make the series distinctive?

Agreed, MAC, Noh-var and Prodigy were far better characters than Eli, KidVision and Cassie.

And folks feared the plans Marvel claimed was Avenger Snuffest (Arena), Especially after Mettle's demise. Folks are tired of that excuse of plans that never happen. I mean if ANYONE should have an issue with Falcon in that suit it would be him.

I always wondered if they removed Patriot from coming in, because of the reaction to Mettle's death???

I would say that Wiccan likely is the focus of CC and Gillen's run, but he shares the story with Loki for Vol.2. So yeah, you're right.

Wiccan's focus in CC was more about giving him an arc (he hadn't had one in the original series). Wasn't Heinberg's original plan to have it only be 6 issues?

[gurkle]

I always wondered if they removed Patriot from coming in, because of the reaction to Mettle's death???

Gillen kept saying, in response to fan demands, that he couldn't use Patriot because someone else at Marvel had plans for him. Whoever it was that had dibs on the character, the project obviously didn't happen.

[Songbird/Diamondback]

At the very least, were you happy when Transonic showed up in Young Avengers?

Yes. Yes I was very much.

[JaggedFel]

Gillen kept saying, in response to fan demands, that he couldn't use Patriot because someone else at Marvel had plans for him. Whoever it was that had dibs on the character, the project obviously didn't happen.

Typical lie they bring out when a character is blacklisted. Of course Frost hates Patriot, Patriot didnt worship Saint Wiccan and think he was always right.

Two Black Guys got screwed I have no great love for either series because of that. I guess Runaways because the first volume was a great ride at least.

As for Wiccan in general, first I think he got way too much focus. Second, I think he was far too whining and it was given far too much deference. Honestly after the original cast, he easily had the nicest backstory and yet whined and complained more then anyone else. Two loving adoptive Parents tragic. Hulking had his adopted mom killed and spent less time whining. Kate had a dead mom and attempted sexual assault or rape in her backstory. Eli has a grandfather who is the victim of government experiments. Cassie dead mother.

[Viteh]

Typical lie they bring out when a character is blacklisted. Of course Frost hates Patriot, Patriot didnt worship Saint Wiccan and think he was always right.

Two Black Guys got screwed I have no great love for either series because of that. I guess Runaways because the first volume was a great ride at least.

As for Wiccan in general, first I think he got way too much focus. Second, I think he was far too whining and it was given far too much deference. Honestly after the original cast, he easily had the nicest backstory and yet whined and complained more then anyone else. Two loving adoptive Parents tragic. Hulking had his adopted mom killed and spent less time whining. Kate had a dead mom and attempted sexual assault or rape in her backstory. Eli has a grandfather who is the victim of government experiments. Cassie dead mother.

I don't think Gillen would really lie about why he wasn't using Eli. He was pretty honest when people asked why he wasn't using other characters. If I had to guess, either he was going to be part of Remender's Captain America, or Ewing's Mighty Avengers. Why that didn't happen I don't know.

I do agree Wiccan got too much focus, although Gillen did make him whining a lot a plot point early on. Hulking flat out pointed it out.

[JaggedFel]

Oh I dont think Gillen was lying I think TPTB were lying when they told him that.

Yes he finally got called out for whining was nice and well deserved.

[Pav]

I like cake and I like ice cream.

I like BKV's Runaways and Gillen's Young Avengers.

Both were excellent at presenting realistic modern young people who just happened to have powers. The writing was powerful in each and the art in both was fantastic.

I wish Marvel could keep such a series going relatively indefinitely.

-Pav, who has plenty of ideas in his back pocket...

[Fokken]

Oh I dont think Gillen was lying I think TPTB were lying when they told him that.

Yes he finally got called out for whining was nice and well deserved.

I really THOUGHT they were going to throw him into the Avengers Arena title (I believe that was going on at the same time, right?) but hoped he was a candidate for full Cap status -- which seems unrealistic now that I think about it. Sam is a much more appropriate choice imho.

I like cake and I like ice cream.

I like BKV's Runaways and Gillen's Young Avengers.

Both were excellent at presenting realistic modern young people who just happened to have powers. The writing was powerful in each and the art in both was fantastic.

I wish Marvel could keep such a series going relatively indefinitely.

-Pav, who has plenty of ideas in his back pocket...

Great post. Concise and to the point.

[skyvolt2000]

I really THOUGHT they were going to throw him into the Avengers Arena title (I believe that was going on at the same time, right?) but hoped he was a candidate for full Cap status -- which seems unrealistic now that I think about it. Sam is a much more appropriate choice imho.

EVERYBODY thought that. You were not alone.

And I think if a second series was made-he would have been there but the negative reaction to Mettle's death pretty much killed that. While his death was noble-it still fell into that troupe of black guys dying first.

Yes Sam as Captain America is fine.

Eli would have been a character study-wearing a costume that was built on the blood of black army men and your grandfather and then dealing with folks who don't want you in the costume in the first place.

I don't know that storyline is dang juicy to pass up. Heck this could have been a Secret Wars story. Heck can we get a mini of that story? Considering the events of the past year-it would be appropriate.

[FlashingSabre]

Patriot would have made an awesome Cap. He's a heck of a lot more qualified for Avengers membership than the ANAD teens, that's for sure.

[Songbird/Diamondback]

The conspiracy theorist in me thinks that Patriot was gonna die in a book, as Gilleon did say on his Tumblr "When people see where Eli is, the Internet will scream". They said that there were plans for him, but then suddenly there were no plans. Seeing how the "plans" for Elixir was his sort of death, for example. I think tragic real world events made Marvel reconsider their axing of Patriot to be honest.