So where is the line between cultural diffusion and cultural appropriation?

[CliffHanger2]

We have many states that have laws that allow transsexuals to change their sexual assignment. It's not laughable, it's law. So, if one person can change an identifying classifier (sex), it seems that someone who wanted to change another identifying classifier (race) would have legal standing. I think it's a short jump.

Hypothetical: A Caucasian that was born in Japan, given up for adoption (or some other means that places him/her in a Japanese household) and raised completely according to Japanese customs. Could this person not check the "Asian" box on college applications? Does he/she not have the right to claim Japanese culture as their heritage? Are they MORE Japanese than Japanese-Americans who are not raised with Japanese Culture?

In terms of gender in the states yes, you can change it and in other parts of the world people get stoned for that sort of thing. Its not the simple thing you're making it out to be. And its a helluva jump to think someone could do that with race especially in the states. Until a law comes out saying people can change their race from black to white and vice versa you're talking science fiction, it'd probably make a good movie though.

To the hypothetical, no a white person wouldn't be able to check Asian in the race box on a college application or job application, just because they were born in Japan. I mean I guess they could but it wouldn't be true. Nationality? Yes. Race? No I don't think so. And no again it wouldn't make them more Japanese than Japanese people born in the U.S. But that's another obsession with cultural appropriators, the need to be " more Native American than the Native Americans" and etc.etc.

[Tracer Bullet]

That's a pretty massive misunderstanding of transvestitism in general.

If you're suggesting there's something about drag performance, not transvestitism in general, that excludes it from being appropriative, please explain.

[Tracer Bullet]

there's quite a few things mentioned in this thread that is not cultural appropriation. plastic surgery is one them

Plastic surgery came up in regards to appropriation because a fair skinned Brazilian man was so enamoured with Korean culture that he had surgery to make himself look East Asian. He took on an Asian(not even Korean) name and now considers himself Asian. It's an extreme example of the adoption of a foreign culture, but one wonders whether seeing someone like that man might elicit the same feelings many feel when watching others take on aspects of a different cultural experience in an appropriative way.

[Paradox]

Tracer Bullet will have to show me how it is:

If you're suggesting there's something about drag performance, not transvestitism in general, that excludes it from being appropriative, please explain.

Well, to start, men and women don't have separate "cultures" as the word's being used. And they're also performances, someone deliberately portraying the role of a women (usually a specific celebrity). Actual acting or portrayals are far different than Paris Hilton putting on a warbonnet so she can have pictures taken because she thinks she looks cool.

[Tracer Bullet]

Well, to start, men and women don't have separate "cultures" as the word's being used.

Well it wouldn't be cultural appropriation, but more along the lines of gender appropriation.

And they're also performances, someone deliberately portraying the role of a women (usually a specific celebrity). Actual acting or portrayals are far different than Paris Hilton putting on a warbonnet so she can have pictures taken because she thinks she looks cool.

Like blackface minstrels? Or White actors playing Native Americans?

[Paradox]

Tracer Bullet goes to terminology:

Well it wouldn't be cultural appropriation, but more along the lines of gender appropriation.

Possibly. But you'd have to show me where it's disrespectful to women, which with drag queens is usually not the case, more "envious" than disrespectful I'd think.

Like blackface minstrels?

Blackfaced minstrel shows aren't portraying black people, they're doing a very bad riff on black stereotypes as if they were "real". Nothing respectful there in the least.

Or White actors playing Native Americans?

While it's usually better to use actual Native Americans, that's not automatically disrespectful, but sometimes it is. Case by case there, I think.

[End of Time]

Possibly. But you'd have to show me where it's disrespectful to women, which with drag queens is usually not the case, more "envious" than disrespectful I'd think.

What if I told you that drag-queens put up a play of exagerated femininity, like a grotesque parody of what a woman is? Would you then still feel this way about drag queens? A drag queen doesn't look like a normal woman, they look like charicatures of women. If a drag queen would look like a normal woman, it would no longer be a drag queen.

Blackfaced minstrel shows aren't portraying black people, they're doing a very bad riff on black stereotypes as if they were "real". Nothing respectful there in the least.

So by your own logic... you should view drag queens as every bit as offensive as blackfaced minstrels, because both are charicatures filled with stereotypes.

[End of Time]

Paradox doesn't think black face is offensive:

While it's usually better to use actual Native Americans, that's not automatically disrespectful, but sometimes it is. Case by case there, I think.

So when blackface is used respectfully... it's totally okay to do in your book?

[Paradox]

End of Time thinks he's making the rules:

What if I told you that drag-queens put up a play of exagerated femininity, like a grotesque parody of what a woman is?

I'd say that you're exaggerating beyond what they do, and are loading up with a buzzword like "grotesque".

Would you then still feel this way about drag queens? A drag queen doesn't look like a normal woman, they look like charicatures of women. If a drag queen would look like a normal woman, it would no longer be a drag queen.

They don't look like "normal women", they look like the stage performer they're "homaging". But do you actually find it offensive? Do women? It's not about what I think or what you "tell me". You can have all the distorted visions of women you want, it'll only make me think you're a Republican.

So by your own logic... you should view drag queens as every bit as offensive as blackfaced minstrels, because both are charicatures filled with stereotypes.

Nope. One's really obviously disrespectful, the other far less so, possibly even down to "no one is offended by that".

So when blackface is used respectfully... it's totally okay to do in your book?

Um, sure I guess. The problem is, you're going to find it impossible to find a respectful use of blackface, because there is none.

Look, the problem still stands with this thread that there always was. People want some damned rulebook about what they "can" and "can't" do in this area (which is often just people wondering how much they can get away with before someone calls them on it). There isn't any. Common sense, putting yourself in someone else's shoes and simple manners rule this area. If you're wondering if the thing you're doing is going to insult someone, that should probably be enough for you to ere on the side of caution. This isn't a science or lawbook. No one's going to draw a line and say "this is and this isn't". Social things don't work like that.

[End of Time]

I'd say that you're exaggerating beyond what they do, and are loading up with a buzzword like "grotesque".

Grotesque isn't a buzzword, it's actually the intent of a set of drag queens. They make themselves look grotesque, monstrous even. Part of the deal.

They don't look like "normal women", they look like the stage performer they're "homaging".

You know surprisingly little about drag queens, if you think all drag queens are doing a Cher routine in Vegas. Most of them don't attempt to look like a celebrity.

But do you actually find it offensive? Do women? It's not about what I think or what you "tell me". You can have all the distorted visions of women you want, it'll only make me think you're a Republican.

Actually there are a lot of women who find drag queens offensive, some feminists object to drag queens because it devalues femininity and mocks women in general. Some transgenders are also taking issue with drag queens, as they feel like it is attacking their plight and their troubles with reconciling their gender identities with their dismorphia. I guess feminists and transgenders are the epitome of Republicans then, with their distorted views on women.

Do you know what "serving fish" means? It is used to describe a very feminine drag queen. Serving fish means you might actually pass for a woman. Feminists have taken offensive to that term.

[Paradox]

Paradox had a moment to reflect:

Um, sure I guess. The problem is, you're going to find it impossible to find a respectful use of blackface, because there is none.

Actually, I did think of one, sort of. When it's being used in an historical context, I don't think most people would be offended. Say, you're doing a "biopic" on Amos and Andy, I would expect blackface to play a BIG part in that movie, but it would be addressing the blackface itself as problematic within the story.

[Paradox]

End of Time pushes:

Grotesque isn't a buzzword, it's actually the intent of a set of drag queens. They make themselves look grotesque, monstrous even. Part of the deal.

Some, I'm sure. In other cases, stage makeup up close often looks way overdone, merely because you "play to the back row". Point conceded, though. What you say does exist.

You know surprisingly little about drag queens, if you think all drag queens are doing a Cher routine in Vegas. Most of them don't attempt to look like a celebrity.

Nah, I know, I was just trying not to get too deeply into the specifics because it's a sidebar thing and not what the thread is talking about.

Actually there are a lot of women who find drag queens offensive, some feminists object to drag queens because it devalues femininity and mocks women in general. Some transgenders are also taking issue with drag queens, as they feel like it is attacking their plight and their troubles with reconciling their gender identities with their dismorphia. I guess feminists and transgenders are the epitome of Republicans then, with their distorted views on women.

While true, it's not like you can't find SOMEONE that's offended by pretty much anything. Some feminists equate consensual sex with rape, but they're a TINY faction. I'd find it surprising if it's any but a small minority of those you mention.

Do you know what "serving fish" means? It is used to describe a very feminine drag queen. Serving fish means you might actually pass for a woman. Feminists have taken offensive to that term.

Well, it kind of is. Not the appearing to be a woman, but the term, since it's equating women with the old "their crotch smells like fish" routine.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

The problem comes about in situations such as white musicians copying black forms poorly, but becoming more successful anyway because of racist attitudes.

which is why people dread the idea of white rappers. There's a almost overt racial bias towards white rappers. Even if they are truly talented the accusation still fits. Even Eminem isn't blind to it. People see his record sales and dismiss it as nothing but white fans "staning". Even before him it was the same with vanilla ice, hi even outsold mc hammer. Most people don't take Eminem's fans seriously as hip hop fans cause the tend to only like him and no one else. It was also like this with new kids on the block, they did NOTHING remotely better or different to new edition but their record sales were astronomical. Maurice Starr was counting on that racial bias frankly. In hip hop urban culture is being marginalized out of its own music. Replaced by homogenized white counterparts, same with rock music. Black rock artists are marginalized if not ignored all together for the great white hope and usual suspects of rock. For instance i never hear nobody praise Ernie Isley as oppose to every other white guitarist. Jimi Hendrix is the only exception. There's a great documentary on you tube that discuses how black rock artists have a hard time getting in the industry. Basically record labels don't know how to market them and white rock listers tend to shun them.

[End of Time]

I'd point out that if you're going to make a case about racism and popular music... you really should be able to explain that some of the most popular and well-known artists aren't white.

[Double 0]

I'd point out that if you're going to make a case about racism and popular music... you really should be able to explain that some of the most popular and well-known artists aren't white.

Being entertained by minorities and believing in racist ideas/ideals are not mutually exclusive. A bunch of white people liked Jackie Robinson when he was playing for instance (as long as he was playing for their team). Didn't change how America was at the time.

Hell, the Jackie Robinson clause applies today. Again, both domestically and internationally (see Mario Balotelli)