David Michelinie

[oldschool]

I got to thinking that it might be a cool idea to revisit certain creators but with a twist: let's list their pros and cons as you perceive them. We've had plenty of polls and lists around here but it might be more informative and interesting to have each of us list what we like as well as don't like about a creative run. For no other reason than just randomness, let's start with David Michelenie. And, for the purposes of this thread, let's just discuss his ASM run. Here's my take:

PROS:

*Venom! And not just the origin; the V-Man's first 3-4 appearances were easily his best IMO. The character was terrifying and we truly wondered how Spidey would defeat him; great stuff.

*Return of The Sinister Six---one of his best arcs and one of the best from that era as well.

*The "Webs" Tour---one of the first times Spidey was taken out of NYC for an extended period and with different locales; a big part of the appeal was the up-and-coming Todd McFarlane's take on the villains and cities but this was a cool twist.

*The Marriage---Michelenie did an admirable job of writing MJ and Peter as a married couple in the early days; I do think the scenario got stale later on (and not just during his run) but those early issues were heartwarming and endearing.

*"Invasion of the Spider-Slayers"---Michelenie's best latter-day story arc; just great fun and expert plotting.


CONS:

*New villains not named Venom or Carnage---Styx and Stone?? Jackrabbit?? For a guy who wrote so many issues, it's surprising he didn't come up with better villains of his own outside of Venom and Carnage. But I suppose they had so many appearances and the second half of his run was dominated by crossovers that it can be somewhat excused. Not to mention that Venom is the last truly A-List villain created by anyone.

*Venom/Carnage Fatigue---After Carnage's intro---which I thought was solid---both villains suffered from overexposure and a diminished sense of the threat they presented. Unavoidable, I suppose but their scenarios and battles were very uninspired in the back end of Michelenie's run.

*The Assassin Nation Plot---I know this arc has it's fans but I just never found espionage to be a world that Spidey fit well into. Plus it was the longest arc of Michelenie's run and dominated an entire summer IIRC.

*"Pursuit"---One of the most anti-climactic Spidey tales ever....and that's saying something.

NB: I avoided any of his chapters during The Clone Saga simply because that was an editorially driven story that he had little to do with; I believe that even the reveal that Peter's parents were robots was an editorial directive and not his decision so I thought it better to leave all the Clone Saga stuff out of this list, both good and bad.


OK, those are my pros and cons for him; let's hear yours!!

[Rob London]

Just a quibble - Michelinie didn't write Pursuit. The ASM portion of that crossover was the first issue of J.M. DeMatteis' run.

Pros:

Action movie plotting. Michelinie could come up with great concepts for plots that lend themselves to great action sequences. He was also fond of plot twists that wouldn't be out of place in an 80s Schwarzenegger movie, like the cocaine-as-post-apocalyptic-currency-stockpile plot in the Punisher 2-parter.

New characters. I'm a lot higher on Michelinie's new characters than oldschool is - Styx and Stone are a hoot, Cardiac is awesome, and Chance is a great concept for a villain. I even kinda like Solo.

Pun-based story titles. What can I say? I'm a sucker for bad puns.

Cons:

Carnage. I don't like Carnage. He's boring. He's overpowered. He's the centrepiece of Maximum Carnage, an almost unbearable fourteen issues of mindless violence. I wish he'd never been created.

Mary Jane as a supermodel. It was kinda fun at the time, and it certainly fit in with the late 80s zeitgeist, but it wasn't good for the long term viability of Mary Jane as a character.

[David Walton]

Oldschool,

I'm agreed with all your pros.

I'd just like to add that Venom could easily have been a one-hit wonder, if not for the brilliant way Michelinie fleshed him out in his next appearance. Only Eddie Brock could suffocate a Vault guard, then kiss him on the forehead, apologize for the murder, and promise to avenge him...by killing Spider-Man!

As far as the cons go, I can't agree about Assassin Nation Plot. The spy world is an awkward fit for Spidey, but that's part of the charm. Spidey KNOWS he doesn't fit in that world, so it's not like he suddenly becomes James Bond. Spidey sporting a tux with his mask still on is par for the course with a guy who once wore a paper bag over his head with an FF costume.

On the subject of villains, I thought most of them served their purpose well enough. I rather enjoyed the quirkiness that Michelinie brought to the book with his creations. Villains don't always have to set the world on fire.

[oldschool]

Just a quibble - Michelinie didn't write Pursuit. The ASM portion of that crossover was the first issue of J.M. DeMatteis' run.

Pros:

Action movie plotting. Michelinie could come up with great concepts for plots that lend themselves to great action sequences. He was also fond of plot twists that wouldn't be out of place in an 80s Schwarzenegger movie, like the cocaine-as-post-apocalyptic-currency-stockpile plot in the Punisher 2-parter.

New characters. I'm a lot higher on Michelinie's new characters than oldschool is - Styx and Stone are a hoot, Cardiac is awesome, and Chance is a great concept for a villain. I even kinda like Solo.

Pun-based story titles. What can I say? I'm a sucker for bad puns.

Cons:

Carnage. I don't like Carnage. He's boring. He's overpowered. He's the centrepiece of Maximum Carnage, an almost unbearable fourteen issues of mindless violence. I wish he'd never been created.

Mary Jane as a supermodel. It was kinda fun at the time, and it certainly fit in with the late 80s zeitgeist, but it wasn't good for the long term viability of Mary Jane as a character.

Rob, thanks for the correction on JMD writing "Pursuit"---totally spaced on that and I shouldn't have as it written more in his style though I did find it anti-climactic after the setup. Also, good point on the action-movie plotting (and punny story names!) of Michelenie.

[Mister Mets]

Michelinie's a significant Spider-Man writer, but not one of the best. My main issue is the storytelling. The dialogue and narration is kinda dated and clunky, without being clever.

It came up in another thread that he wrote the character during arguably the most stable time in the comics.

He was effective at figuring out what readers wanted to see all-time greats like Todd Mcfarlane, Erik Larsen and Mark Bagley draw. He shook things up by featuring multiple villains, which came to define his run to the extent that pitting Spider-Man against the rest of the Marvel Universe defined Roger Stern.

Venom did become one of the top three villains in Spider-Man history even if the batting average isn't that great. Carnage also had an impressive debut.

[oldschool]

Michelinie's a significant Spider-Man writer, but not one of the best. My main issue is the storytelling. The dialogue and narration is kinda dated and clunky, without being clever.

It came up in another thread that he wrote the character during arguably the most stable time in the comics.

He was effective at figuring out what readers wanted to see all-time greats like Todd Mcfarlane, Erik Larsen and Mark Bagley draw. He shook things up by featuring multiple villains, which came to define his run to the extent that pitting Spider-Man against the rest of the Marvel Universe defined Roger Stern.

Venom did become one of the top three villains in Spider-Man history even if the batting average isn't that great. Carnage also had an impressive debut.

Actually, I would add to my list of "cons" your observation that he featuring multiple villains; that's one of my pet peeves. Outside of a Sinister Six storyline, I find that having Scorpion in the same story alongside, say, Rhino and Whiplash dilutes each of them. Michelenie did it pretty often and those stories were oftentimes among my least favorite during his run.

[Metamorphosis]

Pros: everything you listed. For my money, Michelinie was a great Spider-man writer. I maintain that the range between #298-350 was the character's creative peak in the comic world.

Also really enjoyed the "Powerless" arc, and ASM #365. Michelinie co-created Cardiac as well, who while not one of my faves, seems to have endured.

Cons: the back half of his ASM run really stumbled, even with the brilliant pencilling of Bagley. I re-read through #300 to 400 last year, and I already remember very little about those last 30 issues or so after #365 (though the Venom threatening / protecting Peter's fake parents issues were actually pretty good for what they were).

I think Michelinie may be the most underrated Spider-man writer, besides Bill Mantlo.

[oldschool]

Pros: everything you listed. For my money, Michelinie was a great Spider-man writer. I maintain that the range between #298-350 was the character's creative peak in the comic world.

Also really enjoyed the "Powerless" arc, and ASM #365. Michelinie co-created Cardiac as well, who while not one of my faves, seems to have endured.

Cons: the back half of his ASM run really stumbled, even with the brilliant pencilling of Bagley. I re-read through #300 to 400 last year, and I already remember very little about those last 30 issues or so after #365 (though the Venom threatening / protecting Peter's fake parents issues were actually pretty good for what they were).

I think Michelinie may be the most underrated Spider-man writer, besides Bill Mantlo.

I think Mantlo is far, far more underrated simply because Michelenie is credited with/remember for Venom and Carnage. If nothing else, this gives him a resume-starter, as it were. Bill Mantlo wrote very solid stories all for satellite titles and never really became a household name among Spidey fans which is a pity considering his fate and also just how good most of his stories are. It is my hope that as more and more of Spidey's books become available digitally that his profile rises bit among younger readers who did not experience his work the first time around.

[Mister Mets]

I'll give Michelinie credit for introducing new villains. Venom, Carnage and Cardiac had staying power. We could quibble about whether it was wise to reuse some of the other villains (Solo, Styx and Stone) but he made a go of making them part of the rogues gallery.

I think Mantlo is far, far more underrated simply because Michelenie is credited with/remember for Venom and Carnage. If nothing else, this gives him a resume-starter, as it were. Bill Mantlo wrote very solid stories all for satellite titles and never really became a household name among Spidey fans which is a pity considering his fate and also just how good most of his stories are. It is my hope that as more and more of Spidey's books become available digitally that his profile rises bit among younger readers who did not experience his work the first time around.

Mantlo also had the bad luck of hittng his peak at the same time Roger Stern was on Amazing Spider-Man. The Owl/ Octopus war was excellent, but it was often surpassed by what was going on in ASM, with events like the introduction of the Hobgoblin.

[David Walton]

It's also worth noting that Michelinie hit his peak on ASM at a time when an artist's name meant more than a writer's.

Back then, the conversation was all about the spaghetti webbing, the contorted poses, and the huge eyes.

[Ozymandias]

It's also worth noting that Michelinie hit his peak on ASM at a time when an artist's name meant more than a writer's.

Aren't writers paid less, per page, than anybody else in the industry (sans colorists)? I'm actually asking if this isn't still the case today, on average.

[boots]

i don’t know if i can separate his work into pros and cons, because they all sort of melt together for me. i was pleasantly bored by a lot of his run; as a kid my expectations weren’t that high. venom freaked me out and carnage made me sick and both have had lasting impact on the mythos. but even at that age i realised that maximum carnage was silly and i just bought it out of loyalty. the man did his job and i was always satisfied, but when i discovered PADs hulk i realised that there was a higher bar that caused me to drop the book around the return of his robo parents.

[Mister Mets]

Aren't writers paid less, per page, than anybody else in the industry (sans colorists)? I'm actually asking if this isn't still the case today, on average.

Artists are paid more, but it's a much greater time commitment.

From the figures I've seen, colorists are also paid more initially. Part of that is that they don't get as much in the backend, and they have a skill that requires significant expertise to do well. Color has also become an increasingly significant part of modern comics.

The letterer gets paid less than the writer.

I don't know what the page rate for editors is. I'd assume writers get more, but editors have more books.

[Ozymandias]

Artists are paid more, but it's a much greater time commitment.

From the figures I've seen, colorists are also paid more initially. Part of that is that they don't get as much in the backend, and they have a skill that requires significant expertise to do well. Color has also become an increasingly significant part of modern comics.

The letterer gets paid less than the writer.

I don't know what the page rate for editors is. I'd assume writers get more, but editors have more books.

Yeah, I messed that up. The figures I saw are these ones. If we add up the costs, the visual part of the comic (pencil+ink+color+lettering) can cost as much as $900 per age. Plot & Script only $120 (we'd need to add the editor's wages here).

[oldschool]

i don’t know if i can separate his work into pros and cons, because they all sort of melt together for me. i was pleasantly bored by a lot of his run; as a kid my expectations weren’t that high. venom freaked me out and carnage made me sick and both have had lasting impact on the mythos. but even at that age i realised that maximum carnage was silly and i just bought it out of loyalty. the man did his job and i was always satisfied, but when i discovered PADs hulk i realised that there was a higher bar that caused me to drop the book around the return of his robo parents.

As good an overview as any I suppose; I was always entertained and rarely bored with his run. It was always at least serviceable and, similar to the Wein and Wolfman runs of the late 1970's, didn't really rock the boat in any significant ways for Spidey (both the marriage and the second clone saga were editorial changes and occurred just before and after his run respectively). A solid run made a bit more impressive for his longevity on the title.