How To Streamline The Marvel U WITHOUT Rebooting

[The4orTy67]

My reboot line-up.

[Flying Tiger Comics]

the marvel imprint of disney publishing is a licensing business, so by definition genuine change, and therefore continuity, is impossible. therefore in turn, there is no reason to consider any form of reboot, nor would any form of reboot have any longterm effect.

Peter Parker will always be Spider-Man; the stagnant characters in Fantastic Four will always be there.

In this context things will simply continue as they are for the dying monthlies until circa 2025 absent a genuine change in the industry. And since modern marvel is now 1950s DC, that change will occur outside the parvenue of disney or warner.

To try and forestall this game changer the warner disney collective - competitors in all ways except their place in the food chain - try and recruit indie stars. absorb, assimilate, prevent paradigm shift.

Even the endless crossovers are subconsciously mirroring the REAL super villains behind the end of real time comics and meaningful continuity. it's taken decades, but the comicbook movies are now utterly disconnected from the pamphlets.

[MarvelMaster616]

What I find funny is that whenever a conversation about a Marvel Reboot is brought up, all these diehard oppositionists to a reboot spring out of the woodwork saying things like "a reboot is NOT necessary", "continuity is NOT that complicated" or "use the Internet to fill in gaps" etc.

Now I'm not a pro-reboot person in any way, shape or form but let's face it, modern Marvel comics are pretty much IMPENETRABLE to the neophyte. I would suffice it to say that it's probably one of the main reasons why it's so hard to for new fans to get into comics nowadays. There's just TOO much backstory. Too much continuity. I know we here at CBR constantly parrot the line that you don't need to know what happened before to enjoy these stories but we are being hypocritical since all of us are pretty much very well versed with these comics already and already are very familiar with the entire culture and history of the Marvel Universe. To someone who just watched the movies and wants to start reading comics I dare say that unless they're very motivated, they are not going to understand half of what is going on.

How can a new reader possibly understand today's X-Men comics for example? To truly understand and enjoy these stories to the fullest, they would have to know what happened on M Day, the Schism and what it was all about, who Jean Grey was and her tortuous, complicated history, the X-Men's past dealings with the Shiar Empire, the many alternate futures of the X-Men (how else do you explain Rachel Grey? Cable? Raze? Dark Beast?), etc. I'm a comics veteran and I have a hard time figuring out what's what. I can't imagine a newbie picking out All-New X-Men and enjoying it or understanding it. And saying things like "you can look stuff on the Internet" is ludicrous. It turns enjoyment into a chore. I can't imagine what would turn off a new fan faster than telling him or her that they will need to look stuff up on Wikipedia every third page to know what's going on.

And it's not like there are easy jumping on points either. The constant renumberings and recycling of titles makes it almost impossible for a new fan to just effortlessly pick out a self-contained series and start reading. Take "New Avengers" for example. You go on Amazon.com right now and type in "New Avengers Vol. 1" and you'll get THREE different volumes titled "New Avengers Vol. 1", each volume telling a different story, two of them written by the same writer to add to the confusion. And of course, none of them are stand alones, fresh jump in points. The first New Avengers Vol. 1 requires that you know what happened in Avengers Disassembled. The second requires you to pretty much know what happened in the last five years of the previous New Avengers series and the last requires a working knowledge of the Illuminatti. And that's not an isolated incident. If a casual reader hears about the new "X-Force" movie in development and wants to read the comics he's going to be hopelessly confused on Amazon when he sees 4 to 5 different series, all sporting the title "X-Force", all with different members and different raison d'etres. And I pity the fan who wants to read Hulk. It's the single most convoluted mess of retitlings, renumberings and legacy numberings out there.

Again, while a determined fan just MIGHT grit his/her teeth and do some internet sleuthing to find out which volume is which and where to start it would be ridiculous to expect a new casual reader fresh off the theater from watching Avengers to do all that legwork. They would just sigh, shake their heads and just wait for the movie sequel.

Now again, I'm not saying I want a complete reboot...but the argument that comic books are "easy to get into" is false. If you are a reader who wants to know simple, old fashioned things about the characters you are reading about like, why they do things they do what their motivations are, etc. then comics are actually very hard to get into.

You make some very valid points. That's something I didn't think about. There are multiple volumes now of Avengers, New Avengers, Uncanny X-men, Fantastic Four, and Amazing Spider-Man. They all have differrent circumstances, characters, and themes. Just saying that Cyclops is a felon and starting a mutant revolution would probably raise more questions than answers, especially if someone is coming in new with only the movies or cartoons to go on. Since the early 2000s, Marvel has adopted this method of re-shuffling a team and using that as a jumping on point. And at times, that has worked quite well. But it isn't sustainable. With every relaunch, the sales bump that usually comes with a new #1 isn't as good. CBR's monthly Mayo Report does a nice job of showing this. It used to be that new #1s were rare and that's why they developed so much intrigue. But now they're so common that their effect is going to be diluted. That's not an indictment on the quality. That's just basic economics.

I think that if Marvel wants to make their books more accessible and do it in a sustainable way that DC has only managed to do with a few titles (namely Batman), they need to take things a step further. Maybe they should abandon the whole "Volume 1, 2, 3 etc." concept all together. I also think that the product itself needs to be redone. These aren't paperbacks that kids buy off of news stands anymore. Most of them come from comic book stores or the internet. I think one way to give these books more value is to make them longer. I look at the success of DC's Earth One books and I see a possible format for the future. I also think that the whole numbering system itself seems a bit outdated. Why does any comic need to do things that way? Is there another way to format serialized fiction that they haven't tried?

I think that as time goes on, the Marvel universe is going to become increasingly inaccessible because of its size. Details like the X-men starting out in the 60s and Ben Grimm being in World War II and Frank Castle being in Vietnam can't keep being ignored or shrugged off. I get the sense that the current system of doing things is akin to shoveling sand against the tide. Marvel can delay it, but they can't stop it. It probably won't happen within the next 5 years, but I think it is going to happen at some point and if they do not adapt, then someone else will. Again, that's just the law of economics at work.

[HsssH]

Really? You think comics are convoluted now, but you're pointing at the most convoluted era of comics and continuity as a success?

I wouldn't say that comics are less convoluted now. They should probably be more convoluted now since we got 2 more decades of continuity.

It took me 30 seconds max to find this. You aren't on dial-up, are you?

While searching an hour for that information is a stretch there are actually multiple reading orders floating around. Thou I imagine collected edition should be collected in order, I hope.

[agentofchaos]

I was just thinking about this and wondering where the MU ends up in a year or two once Marvel Now finishes. I would title the next Marvel movement "Marvel: Respawned" and start each title again with a new #1, but also bring back the ongoing number coding to the titles underneath to help please order fans and keep things easy with all the new volumes, etc. I.e Amazing Spiderman #1 (#702)

I would also shorten the amount of books available drastically. It's cool having so many options but right now I feel like they've diluted themselves to the point where people are forced to make too many hard choices on what they want to read. I think having 8 titles released weekly, with 2 mini series or one shot issues, for a rough total of 40 monthly books published over a 4 week stretch is reasonable. I.e 32 main ongoing titles across the whole Marvel universe monthly (it's at 48 and growing right now, plus a bunch of mini series, mcu tie ins and infinite books as well). This would mean cancelling or ending the Ultimate line as well, which has served its purpose.

I would also make every marvel book $2.99 with the exception of the elite 8 (Avengers, New Avengers, Amazing Spider-Man, Spectacular Spider-Man, Uncanny X-Men, X-Men, Fantasic Four, Guardians of the Galaxy, which would be $4.99) . With the higher pull lists due to less titles you'll sell more copies anyway and it would be a great opportunity to brand yourself as super affordable in this day and age, plus you'll make up the difference on the price increase on the core mega titles). If you really wanted you could make the elite solo books like Thor, Iron Man, Hulk, Cap, and Wolverine $3.99 I suppose to help offset.

I would also brand each segment of the releases with a letter in the corner of the cover of the book. Here are the 5 brands I would sell and the titles I would incorporate under said umbrella;

A - The Avengers brand.
Core Titles: Avengers, New Avengers, Agents of Shield
Solo Titles: Hulk, Captain America, Thor, Iron Man
Supplemental Solo Titles: Hawkeye, Black Widow, Ant Man, Black Panther, Namor.

Explanation: The two main books continue on as Avengers and New Avengers, which occasionally use/filter into Agents of Shield when necessary. Gone are spidey and Wolverine as Avengers and it becomes extremely Stark, Cap, Banner, and Thor centric (and some of the other high ranking illuminati members in New Avengers). Agents of Shield is the black ops uncanny x-force version of the Avengers that Secret Avengers wishes it was. Maybe led by Falcon? The solo titles keep doing their own thing, Hawk and Black Widow can be looked at as sister books, occasionally crossing over (similar to Daredevil Elektra mentioned below). I know Namor is a mutant, but he would be branded here as his feuding with Panther would cross over as both books touch on the Wakanda/Atlantis war that's been brooding, and plus he's a part of the Illuminati so he would be appearing in New Avengers and not in any X-book. You could also have one of BP or Namor break bad as a result of their beef, and captain a new Dark Avengers villain book if the name of that title is felt to sell better than a Namor solo one, for example.

X - The X-men brand
Core Titles: Uncanny X-Men, X-Men, X-Factor, X-Force
Solo Titles: Xavier, Magneto, Wolverine, Hope

Explanation: Uncanny and Adj less are once again the two big books leading the show now that they have been re-united as a team following the death/rebirth of Wolverine. One team lead by Cyclops, one school. X-Factor and X-force are doing their own thing, occasionally crossing over. Havok ends up back on X-factor with Polaris and Quicksilver, the X-Force is pretty much a Cable book. Xavier returns and get a solo book depicting what happened during his absence/death, ditto for Wolvie, Magneto is perfect as it is, and the Hope book is the female force book X-men wishes it was now, where Hope friends Jubilee and learns from her, bonds with Rachel who becomes the unsung star of the book, and has a gen X throwback vibe to it featuring some of those characters.

S - Spidey Brand
Amazing & Spectacular

Explanation: Pretty self explanatory but basically going back to the two sister spidey titles keeps things simple, but allowing that second title for other stories that may not be appropriate for Amazing when they are not intertwining. Miles Morales and Spidey 2099 had their time in the sun leading up to this but both step aside in this era to allow Peter to be the full focus once again.

M - Magic, Mystery, Science, and Cosmic Adventures
Fantastic Four
Guardians of the Galaxy
Agents of Sword
Black Bolt: Inhuman
Dr. Strange
Untitled Cosmic Team Book (featuring a new collection of classic cosmic characters from the Marvel universe, like a new wave Thunderbolts from Space, possibly even led by Red Hulk? Death's Head, Beta Ray Bill, Silver Surfer etc could easily fit that bill).

Explanation: Agents of Sword would be a sister book to Agents of Shield, connecting these books with the Avengers titles when necessary. You could use the opportunity to install someone unexpected and awesome as new head of that division (Captain Marvel?) to sell the book that governs the galactic world i.e Nick Fury of Space. Strange would be a throwback journey into mystery style book. Inhuman will be developed enough by then it can focus mostly on the dealings of Black Bolt and Medusa and the community of the inhumans and the extended fallout of inhumanity. Guardians and FF are the fun, roaming books that are targeted a bit more to the younger ages with the exploration of space and science, with the FF crossing paths with the Agents of Shield here and there, and the Swords book doing the same with the Guardians. The untitled book's new team can clash with Guardians and Sword as well but mostly focus on developing the team early on.

K - Marvel Knights
Daredevil
Elektra
The Punisher
Deadpool

Explanation: Basically the hard r titles where the adult fans get the blood and guts and graphic subject material. Daredevil and Elektra would be sister books, occasionally crossing over allowing for longer arcs and fleshed out stories. Deadpool and Punisher pretty much doing there own thing in a MAX style book as they should be.


I think that would trim things down to near perfect levels, and allow for première storytelling and consistency across the Marvel U. You have a great opportunity to market to the new, while pleasing the older fans by giving the long reigning titles their original numbering back (even if it is somewhat coded in the marketing of it). You can still run some killer mini series on the other characters not addressed here that you want to push, but the important thing would be to keep some damn consistency for once, promoting that each respawned book will to get at least get to 25 issues regardless of sales. I feel you'd get more people buying in to the lesser known books knowing the title won't be cancelled as soon as it starts to get going.

[Joe Acro]

I would prefer that instead of looking backwards--"Our history is too messy. We need to make it simpler."--they look forwards. Yes, I'm all for streamlining the universe, but only the one we have now. At times, characters' individual stories get a bit disjointed because they appear in multiple books, without accounting for what happens when. It's not a consistent problem, mind you. Iron Man or Captain Marvel appearing in Guardians of the Galaxy was smoothly done, for example, but on the whole I think Marvel isn't nearly as good at is as it could be.

I really don't understand these arguments about how you can just look in wiki for information or buy previous issues digitally. Like, sure you can, but why would some potential new reader actually want to do that? He doesn't have to do that in order to enjoy new movie, book, video game, tv show or whatever else. Sure some people will be okay with that (like I was or a guy who made an example about how his issues were in the middle of some crossover), but vast majority will decide to look for some other form of entertainment instead.

Thats one of the main reasons why indie stuff like Walking Dead or Saga are doing well in trades, they got all their collections numbered nicely and readers knows where is the start and doesn't have to google anything. Now compare that to already mentioned X-Force or Hulk? How many "first volumes" do they have? Same problem is with DC but at slightly lower scale since they tend not to relaunch same book 3 times in 3 years (Secret Avengers).

Trade labeling might be an issue. I typically don't read trades, so I don't know. However, I do agree with you that comics should not be designed such that a new reader has to do research to understand the story. All pertinent details to the story should be included within the story. That just makes sense.

Interestingly, I've seen Hickman play it both ways in Avengers. In one issue, he has Bruce Banner discover the Illuminati, but unless you had been reading New Avengers, you may not understand the significance of this discovery or the need to hide the team. Conversely, when Cap wakes up and remembers being mind-wiped, we get a repeat of parts of issues of New Avengers, presumably in an effort to bring people who just read Avengers up to speed. The latter is better, in my book, even if it might seem a little tedious to someone who was already reading New Avengers in the first place.

[HsssH]

All pertinent details to the story should be included within the story. That just makes sense.

Definitely. Its just a bit hard to balance it out so that old reader doesn't get pissed at you for repeating stuff that he already knows and new reader is brought up to speed. Easier to say "**** him, he can read it on wikipedia" and move on.

[Expletive Deleted]

With a shared universe this old and this complex, continuity streamlining is a no-win scenario. Have any of DC's crises actually made continuity better? Every time, things have come out more confused than before.

The best things to do are to build better tools for navigating old continuity, for those who want to dig in, and try to build new stories that don't require an in-depth knowledge of continuity to be enjoyed, for everyone else. Honestly, 99% of old continuity is irrelevant. Someone mentioned Fall of Hulks. When was the last time even cursory knowledge of Fall of Hulks was necessary to understanding a Hulk comic?

[neonrideraryeh]

OP had me until remove clones. I don't want to lose Kaine. Besides that though, I would like to see some kind of soft reboot that removes some of the problems and redundancies and makes it much easier for newer readers (I feel like new people can jump into Avengers fairly easy but not so much X-Men which could do with some cleaning up) while keeping the more important things. That said, I wouldn't complain if Marvel rebooted except for the aforementioned Kaine/Aracely thing because I love those two.

[jackolover]

I'm . . . not sure what that has to do with the thread. Did you post this in the wrong thread?

Also, Kamala has nothing to do with Carol changing to Captain Marvel. She took on the Captain Marvel name because it was decided she deserved it, that it was time for her to take the mantle. Most likely because editorial felt Captain was a stronger title than Ms., and that the change would position her better as one of Marvel's heavy hitters. Then Kamala took the Ms. Marvel name to carry on that legacy.

Also, the little bit with her and Monica wasn't a "crisis." It was a joke.

I was commenting on an earlier post that mentioned it. I just seemed an odd coincidence that Carol took the name Cap Marvel and someone else took her name, like editorial already knew Kamala was in the pipe. You know what I mean? And I understand than joke too between Carol and Monica, but it does have a interesting progression to it, that name of Cap Marv. Kamala May one day also like it.

[Gus]

Nobody needs a reboot. Nobody wants a reboot. Learn from DC's mistake, leave it alone.

[beetee]

You want a reboot? ......... You'll be sorrrrrrreeeeeee......

[jackolover]

the marvel imprint of disney publishing is a licensing business, so by definition genuine change, and therefore continuity, is impossible. therefore in turn, there is no reason to consider any form of reboot, nor would any form of reboot have any longterm effect.

Peter Parker will always be Spider-Man; the stagnant characters in Fantastic Four will always be there.

In this context things will simply continue as they are for the dying monthlies until circa 2025 absent a genuine change in the industry. And since modern marvel is now 1950s DC, that change will occur outside the parvenue of disney or warner.

To try and forestall this game changer the warner disney collective - competitors in all ways except their place in the food chain - try and recruit indie stars. absorb, assimilate, prevent paradigm shift.

Even the endless crossovers are subconsciously mirroring the REAL super villains behind the end of real time comics and meaningful continuity. it's taken decades, but the comicbook movies are now utterly disconnected from the pamphlets.

I would have argued with you on the point of "modern Marvel is now 1950's DC", except that since Hickman took over from Bendis, the stories have made little sense, because they hopped right into interstellar illogic, with no emotion and little character sense. I have been waiting for the Hickman era to get to its resolution, but everything has been put on hold for 3 years until he decides to expose his big plan. Meanwhile, other books dependant on the outcome of Hickman philosophy are circling the airport.

It's not all just because of Hickman, at least I don't think so, because with the start of the Heroic Age, after the Dark Age, Captain America has made little sense to me, as far as his reaction to the whole Civil War fallout. I would have expected Steve Rogers to have been a little peeved at the US government enough to tell them he is pulling the Avengers out of circulation unless he he gets full and total autonomy from the Government, which he didn't do. He just bowed to pressure, and the MU went on. And it's this unemotional response to the fallout of CW that shows a lack of impact in the stories.

I liked Fear Itself, because it was a nice twist on the Asgard Mythos, and AVX could have been done better, but it had the requisite controversy involved. But with Age of Ultron running its course, you would think there would have been more fallout hitting the MU from all sides, like Spidergirl appearing in the MU, (disregarding the Remender appearance, which seems to be unrelated to time breaking), or even related to Hickmans storyline, but we get none of this. The AoU and Hickmans stuff seem to be at odds with each other

[pageturner]

I don't think they need to do anything.

For every one reader that believes continuity is too convoluted, there's 4 that complains when continutiy is ignored. For the most part, it's not really that huge an issue.

THe only major concern is creating new jumping on points for new readers. And they can accomplish that by doing new issue 1's every so often when major runs and and new ones begin.

Sort of like how the Bendis era ended and the Hickman era began. Eventually the Hickman era will end and a new one will begin, and that can create a brand new jumping in point without anything needing to be rebooted.

People overthink the whole issue or reboots. It's simply not necessary, soft or otherwise.

pretty much this any "fix" is going to ripped by a faction so why bother. Honestly it is only a problem if you take a hardline about continuity. If you accept that strict continuity ties the worst work to the best work then you are fine. If you have no problem ignoring some part of a characters history you are also fine.
each reader is as miserable as they want to be.

Also A of U 's biggest long term impact is not who changes universes but the activation of AI as a life form. It is not just a handful of robots/androids running around it is thousands if not more.

[MindofShadow]

I think anny soft reboot is the wrong way to go.


You either nuke everything and start over like they did when the Ultimate line first came out

or you leave it alone.


Soft reboots are ****.