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  1. #3496
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    Its oversaturation. Its a thing, regardless if people want to accept or not. Resources aren't unlimited. And we do need Batman, the industry depends on Batman, and what's more with out Batman and the association with Batman most of Batfamily wouldn't be around.

  2. #3497
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    The batfamily was doing quite nicely immediately pre-Flashpoint. The vast majority of characters were being handled well, with Cass being the main exception. Nearly everyone had a role and a purpose. The batfamily became much more bloated and oversaturated immediately following the Nu52 reboot, but not because there were more characters. At first there were fewer characters since some were erased by the reboot. The problem was the writing became worse and the characters who remained lost their distinctive roles and personalities and became cookie-cutter cutouts of each other. There was no story or character justification for having 4 Robins. Even Batgirl became too similar to Batman and lost much of her uniqueness. Tim got it the worst and if there's one character who should have been erased by the reboot it's him, but it was a universal problem. Any new character who was created was thrust into this world where everyone was already pretty much the same and the line was oversaturated by cardboard cutouts of each other and bad writing. This is what makes the glut of the last 10 years so frustrating. DC has already proven that with the right talent and direction they can balance having so many characters while giving them all distinct personalities and roles, and since the 2011 reboot they just refuse to do it.

  3. #3498
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    Nightwing got it the worse. In regards to bloat and oversaturation. His creator level was substantially down graded from the creators he was seeing previous, while his history, connections, and generation was taken and divided up to try and facilitate a role and purpose for the others. Even new characters would poach his color scheme or share in his history. It happed to turn out the worst for Tim though.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-17-2022 at 03:43 AM.

  4. #3499
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    The batfamily was doing quite nicely immediately pre-Flashpoint. The vast majority of characters were being handled well, with Cass being the main exception. Nearly everyone had a role and a purpose. The batfamily became much more bloated and oversaturated immediately following the Nu52 reboot, but not because there were more characters. At first there were fewer characters since some were erased by the reboot. The problem was the writing became worse and the characters who remained lost their distinctive roles and personalities and became cookie-cutter cutouts of each other. There was no story or character justification for having 4 Robins. Even Batgirl became too similar to Batman and lost much of her uniqueness. Tim got it the worst and if there's one character who should have been erased by the reboot it's him, but it was a universal problem. Any new character who was created was thrust into this world where everyone was already pretty much the same and the line was oversaturated by cardboard cutouts of each other and bad writing. This is what makes the glut of the last 10 years so frustrating. DC has already proven that with the right talent and direction they can balance having so many characters while giving them all distinct personalities and roles, and since the 2011 reboot they just refuse to do it.
    Er, Jason fans would certainly disagree there.

  5. #3500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Its oversaturation. Its a thing, regardless if people want to accept or not. Resources aren't unlimited. And we do need Batman, the industry depends on Batman, and what's more with out Batman and the association with Batman most of Batfamily wouldn't be around.
    Spider-Man and the X-Men regularly match or outsell Batman. The industry doesn't need him.

  6. #3501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lal View Post
    Again, there are two problems -
    First, that somehow including new characters leads to them taking traits from existing characters or making existing ones seem incompetent. And it happens all the time.
    For exmple, does Ghost maker really need to be better with computers than Oracle?
    This is a result of DC trying (and failing) to replace Oracle or copy her gimmick. And it isn't just limited to Batfamily characters. They tried to do similar stuff with Cyborg and Hack.

    And then there's the problem of creating new characters when so many existing ones are in limbo most of the time or have nothing to do.
    Right now the batfamily outgrew the number of characters it can support. Babs became Oracle again not because of character growth this time, but just to give the spotlight to Cass and Steph.
    Huntress and Batwoman are investigating the Arkham tower when Tim has absolutely nothing to do and it's not clear why he isn't one of the detectives investegating it.
    And the list goes on and on.
    Most of these aren't new characters. Cass and Steph have been around since the 90s, and Huntress is from the 80s.

  7. #3502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Spider-Man and the X-Men regularly match or outsell Batman. The industry doesn't need him.
    Spider-Man and X-Men don’t sell so well that they would cover for taking Batman out of the market. The effects it would have on DC, and the market in general would be insurmountable.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-17-2022 at 01:41 PM.

  8. #3503
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    It's definitely not a good thing that DC needs the Batman IP as much as they do at this point. They've put most of their eggs in one basket. But yeah, they need him and have nothing to fall back if they were to lose him. It's at least partially a problem of their own making, but it is what it is.

    We also objectively need Batman himself more than the majority of his extended family. He is the brand itself and the rest use that to gain traction they otherwise wouldn't if they were born out of any other brand of the DCU. The various adaptations that have few (if any) Bat-Family members also prove that Batman's story probably needs his villains more than most of his allies.

  9. #3504
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    We also objectively need Batman himself more than the majority of his extended family. He is the brand itself and the rest use that to gain traction they otherwise wouldn't if they were born out of any other brand of the DCU. The various adaptations that have few (if any) Bat-Family members also prove that Batman's story probably needs his villains more than most of his allies.
    That doesn't prove anything other than the people adapting them either don't want to use the Bat family as much or are prevented from using them.

  10. #3505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Spider-Man and X-Men don’t sell so well that they would cover for taking Batman out of the market. The effects it would have on DC, and the market in general would be insurmountable.
    It would have an effect on DC. The rest of the market is another matter given how well Marvel outsells DC on a regular basis.

  11. #3506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It would have an effect on DC. The rest of the market is another matter given how well Marvel outsells DC on a regular basis.
    It’s not another matter. DC is still the second biggest publisher in the market, and makes up a big chunk of the market. You are severely underappreciating DC and Batman’s place in the comic book market.

  12. #3507
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That doesn't prove anything other than the people adapting them either don't want to use the Bat family as much or are prevented from using them.
    Batman's been around for 80 odd years. Most of the Bat-Family are relative Johnny Come Latelys who only comic nerds know, and Batman gains most of his popularity from his outside media where the most well known and popular of his supporting characters are the ones who have been with him since almost the beginning.

    The fact that so many versions exist with a streamlined or no Bat-Family and still do well and feel "complete" means he as a character is needed, but most of the rest are pretty interchangeable or not needed for everything. Even something like Batman Beyond needed Bruce around in some capacity to take off. Them being barred from specific uses means there are certain stories where they may be needed, but across the entire board, Bruce is the #1 necessity.

  13. #3508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    It’s not another matter. DC is still the second biggest publisher in the market, and makes up a big chunk of the market. You are severely underappreciating DC and Batman’s place in the comic book market.
    No he's not.

    How many bins, grab bags, clearance sales and discounted books star the Bat family?

    Not everybody who goes to a comic book store is buying Batman.

    We confuse that 100K on comicchron with books BOUGHT by a person.

    We let the gators focus the unsold books of POC and not the way LARGER pile of Batman (X-Men and Spidey too) leaves.

    We ignore the covered in DUST editions of the first printing of Batman Long Night or Hush or Death in the Family as newer volumes get made.

    We ignore the fact that second printings are for book sold to stores NOT copies bought by customers.

    It's not Batman needs to be removed it's store owners need to order copies that SELL OUT every copy. 100k ordered and only 90k sold doesn't help the store.


    Now if we look on Amazon trades.....

    Dc would NOT exist without Bat titles. Because aside from Beast Boy and those OGNs-folks are ignoring DC. Now that is why he has 60 new trades and the only other DC person in double digits is Superman with 10. Marvel has 3 brands with over 20-Panther, Spider-Man and X-Men.

  14. #3509
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    No he's not.

    How many bins, grab bags, clearance sales and discounted books star the Bat family?

    Not everybody who goes to a comic book store is buying Batman.

    We confuse that 100K on comicchron with books BOUGHT by a person.

    We let the gators focus the unsold books of POC and not the way LARGER pile of Batman (X-Men and Spidey too) leaves.

    We ignore the covered in DUST editions of the first printing of Batman Long Night or Hush or Death in the Family as newer volumes get made.

    We ignore the fact that second printings are for book sold to stores NOT copies bought by customers.

    It's not Batman needs to be removed it's store owners need to order copies that SELL OUT every copy. 100k ordered and only 90k sold doesn't help the store.


    Now if we look on Amazon trades.....

    Dc would NOT exist without Bat titles. Because aside from Beast Boy and those OGNs-folks are ignoring DC. Now that is why he has 60 new trades and the only other DC person in double digits is Superman with 10. Marvel has 3 brands with over 20-Panther, Spider-Man and X-Men.
    Order management is each stores own responsibility. Generally speaking Batman can afford leftovers cause of how much sheer product he still moves. The market relies on DC and Batman. This is common knowledge. Everyone might not buy him, but a lot do nevertheless. And shops see him as a safe buy because of his general appeal. Amazon trades seems to reflect the same story. DC needs Batman, and the comic book market needs DC.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-19-2022 at 03:31 AM.

  15. #3510
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    More human characters who do nothing but just help the hero do what they do couldn't hurt.

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