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  1. #2806
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Except the Nightwings got killed off and the narrative went out of its’ way to justify why there can only be one and only forever and ever. It was equally celebrated by fans. Those SAME fans who devalue Batgirl in such a way. It’s the fact that DC is so keen to give in to such nonsense rather than making an actual effort to DIFFERENTIATE every character and their approach that’s BS.

    Her approach as Batgirl absolutely can stand out, because as you said: if Nightwing can get get away with it then Batgirl absolutely should be afforded that same luxury
    The other Nightwings were non-entities and part of the reviled "Ric" storyline. In contrast, Steph and Cass are fan favorite characters (Cass being the first Batgirl to hold down a solo comic) and Barbara's time as Oracle is very well loved by a lot of people. Batgirl can't be afforded the exact same luxury because that isn't a remotely similar situation.

    Oracle is her equivalent to the Nightwing identity, not Batgirl. It's her "graduation." YMMV on if you think that's fair or not, but that's generally how it is. Despite loving a lot of Oracle stuff, my preference is for her to be Batgirl. But it's not like we've had a lot of stand out stuff in comparison since she became Batgirl again, so it's hard to really justify it beyond a preference and nostalgia for old stuff at this point

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't think I have a high horse - I was sharing my opinion, just like you did yours.
    You definitely don't

  2. #2807

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The other Nightwings were non-entities and part of the reviled "Ric" storyline. In contrast, Steph and Cass are fan favorite characters (Cass being the first Batgirl to hold down a solo comic) and Barbara's time as Oracle is very well loved by a lot of people. Batgirl can't be afforded the exact same luxury because that isn't a remotely similar situation.

    Oracle is her equivalent to the Nightwing identity, not Batgirl. It's her "graduation." YMMV on if you think that's fair or not, but that's generally how it is. Despite loving a lot of Oracle stuff, my preference is for her to be Batgirl. But it's not like we've had a lot of stand out stuff in comparison since she became Batgirl again, so it's hard to really justify it beyond a preference and nostalgia for old stuff at this point
    That is absolutely disingenuous and you know it: if Ric can survive for years and years and be utterly reviled, only to snap back to the -exact- same approach that he was operating under before, Babs as Batgirl absolutely can too and be just as adored for it. All Babs needs is someone to invest in an actual -story- for her that editorial won’t say “Save for Batman.” The only reason Steph and Cass even got off the ground is because of what -Barbara- brought to Batgirl, how -she- built it up. They can do the exact same thing under ANY name, but Babs can’t. She’s either making a name for herself or shunted behind the scenes acting as exposition for everyone else.

  3. #2808

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't think I have a high horse - I was sharing my opinion, just like you did yours.
    You were. I shared an opinion: you went out of your way to prove yourself right. Back off.

  4. #2809
    Spectacular Member km_sus's Avatar
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    Someone shat in your cheerios this morning...

  5. #2810

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    Quote Originally Posted by km_sus View Post
    Someone shat in your cheerios this morning...
    Just sick of all the hypocrisy in this place. About time to start giving a little back of what I’ve been getting here.

  6. #2811
    Spectacular Member km_sus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Just sick of all the hypocrisy in this place. About time to start giving a little back of what I’ve been getting here.
    You wouldn't happen to be someone who posts a lot in /co/ a lot, would you?

  7. #2812

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    Quote Originally Posted by km_sus View Post
    You wouldn't happen to be someone who posts a lot in /co/ a lot, would you?
    What’s that? A Reddit thing?

  8. #2813
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    That is absolutely disingenuous and you know it: if Ric can survive for years and years and be utterly reviled, only to snap back to the -exact- same approach that he was operating under before, Babs as Batgirl absolutely can too and be just as adored for it. All Babs needs is someone to invest in an actual -story- for her that editorial won’t say “Save for Batman.” The only reason Steph and Cass even got off the ground is because of what -Barbara- brought to Batgirl, how -she- built it up. They can do the exact same thing under ANY name, but Babs can’t. She’s either making a name for herself or shunted behind the scenes acting as exposition for everyone else.
    The key difference is that Ric was reviled and Oracle and her legacies were not. Plus Oracle lasted significantly longer. And I think the bolded is selling Oracle very short. She arguably stood out more than Nightwing does when he has to share space with Batman, Red Hood, Red Robin and Robin

    Cass in particular did not get off the ground only because of what Barbara brought as Batgirl; it being a popular mantle, especially the renewed popularity due to Barbara in the DCAU, certainly helped, but to say it's the only reason is being seriously disingenuous yourself. There's not a doubt in my mind that Babs as Batgirl could have sustained an ongoing due to the strength of the Bat-brand at that time and with the right writer to highlight her strengths as a character, but it's up in the air if it would have been more or less successful than what they had with Cass at the time. And if we're giving Barbara as Batgirl points for her perseverance and not giving up, why are we not giving points to her as Oracle and Cass? Both are effective heroes despite having disabilities.

    I say all this as someone who isn't overly attached to Cass or Steph and thinks of Babs as Batgirl first and Oracle a distant second

  9. #2814

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The key difference is that Ric was reviled and Oracle and her legacies were not. Plus Oracle lasted significantly longer. And I think the bolded is selling Oracle very short. She arguably stood out more than Nightwing does when he has to share space with Batman, Red Hood, Red Robin and Robin

    Cass in particular did not get off the ground only because of what Barbara brought as Batgirl; it being a popular mantle, especially the renewed popularity due to Barbara in the DCAU, certainly helped, but to say it's the only reason is being seriously disingenuous yourself. There's not a doubt in my mind that Babs as Batgirl could have sustained an ongoing due to the strength of the Bat-brand at that time and with the right writer to highlight her strengths as a character, but it's up in the air if it would have been more or less successful than what they had with Cass at the time. And if we're giving Barbara as Batgirl points for her perseverance and not giving up, why are we not giving points to her as Oracle and Cass? Both are effective heroes despite having disabilities.

    I say all this as someone who isn't overly attached to Cass or Steph and thinks of Babs as Batgirl first and Oracle a distant second
    It’s still a double standard: Nightwing gets to stagnate forever, Oracle acts as nothing but tech support (and I speak as a disabled person as I say this who is sick and tired of the narrative that we’re ‘valuable’ indoors just because the world isn’t accessible) yet any mistakes Babs made as Batgirl were dissected with a fine-tooth comb while Cass and Steph would have easily gotten passes for it from their fans. For ten years.

    Barbara Gordon can absolutely be a paralysed Batgirl; she shouldn’t have to give it over to two characters who can do the -exact same work- they do under any name and costume.

  10. #2815
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    It’s still a double standard: Nightwing gets to stagnate forever, Oracle acts as nothing but tech support (and I speak as a disabled person as I say this who is sick and tired of the narrative that we’re ‘valuable’ indoors just because the world isn’t accessible) yet any mistakes Babs made as Batgirl were dissected with a fine-tooth comb while Cass and Steph would have easily gotten passes for it from their fans. For ten years.

    Barbara Gordon can absolutely be a paralysed Batgirl; she shouldn’t have to give it over to two characters who can do the -exact same work- they do under any name and costume.
    So if Nightwing can stagnate forever, you want Batgirl to stagnate forever as well? Neither scenario sounds great

    Her mistakes were dissected because DC continuity is weird and they wanted to have it both ways where it is a fresh young universe but also had the baggage of stuff like TKJ and apparently some time as Oracle. We are well past the point where Barbara should be a rookie, regardless of what moniker she's going under. And 10 years later we still have not gotten a run that is as great Simone's time on BOP, so we lost some great runs in continuity and two other fan favorite characters for one character who isn't getting great stories compared to what she can have (as either Batgirl or Oracle). There isn't really a net positive for their decision to make her Batgirl again at the point they did and the way they did it. You can't put the cat back in the bag again when all this other stuff has accumulated.

  11. #2816

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    So if Nightwing can stagnate forever, you want Batgirl to stagnate forever as well? Neither scenario sounds great

    Her mistakes were dissected because DC continuity is weird and they wanted to have it both ways where it is a fresh young universe but also had the baggage of stuff like TKJ and apparently some time as Oracle. We are well past the point where Barbara should be a rookie, regardless of what moniker she's going under. And 10 years later we still have not gotten a run that is as great Simone's time on BOP, so we lost some great runs in continuity and two other fan favorite characters for one character who isn't getting great stories compared to what she can have (as either Batgirl or Oracle). There isn't really a net positive for their decision to make her Batgirl again at the point they did and the way they did it. You can't put the cat back in the bag again when all this other stuff has accumulated.
    Well it’s worked for Nightwing, hasn’t it?

    And subjective opinion is subjective: as far as I’m concerned, Burnside and Maighread Scott’s run were up to par with Simone, the latter of which even managing to reconcile Babs ‘insisting she’s recovered’ with her actual recovery, albeit without the awesome Frankie Charles, another disabled woman. And here’s the thing: Batgirl isn’t a side-kick role, never was. She isn’t a rookie as Batgirl, it’s simply her identity: one that criminals underestimate her for and with what she can use as an advantage. She was inspired by Batman but never ‘under’ him until 90’s retcons.

    Steph and Cass can easily work with Babs in the -exact- same way without being Batgirl, but Babs never gets that luxury or opportunity. The lads can flail around for decades, but one mistake from Babs? Well that’s just inexcusable.

  12. #2817
    Spectacular Member km_sus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Well it’s worked for Nightwing, hasn’t it?

    And subjective opinion is subjective: as far as I’m concerned, Burnside and Maighread Scott’s run were up to par with Simone, the latter of which even managing to reconcile Babs ‘insisting she’s recovered’ with her actual recovery, albeit without the awesome Frankie Charles, another disabled woman. And here’s the thing: Batgirl isn’t a side-kick role, never was. She isn’t a rookie as Batgirl, it’s simply her identity: one that criminals underestimate her for and with what she can use as an advantage. She was inspired by Batman but never ‘under’ him until 90’s retcons.

    Steph and Cass can easily work with Babs in the -exact- same way without being Batgirl, but Babs never gets that luxury or opportunity. The lads can flail around for decades, but one mistake from Babs? Well that’s just inexcusable.
    I think the reason Barbara is looked upon with more scrutiny is because when she went from Oracle back to Batgirl, she not only stepped on Stephanie and Cassandra's characters (to the point they were retconned out of existence) but upon her own characterisation and development, since Barbara had actually spent more time as Oracle than as Batgirl by 2011. When they pulled off their controversial move, most were probably expecting a Green Lantern Rebirth type epic - a story that justified retconning fan favorites out and seemingly "curing" Barbara's paralysation. What we got from Simone was good, but the rest of Barbara's last decade has been controversial from a story quality perspective.

    It's not just the story readers are evaluating, but wether her being Batgirl was worth destroying everything else that came before it.

  13. #2818

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    Quote Originally Posted by km_sus View Post
    I think the reason Barbara is looked upon with more scrutiny is because when she went from Oracle back to Batgirl, she not only stepped on Stephanie and Cassandra's characters (to the point they were retconned out of existence) but upon her own characterisation and development, since Barbara had actually spent more time as Oracle than as Batgirl by 2011. When they pulled off their controversial move, most were probably expecting a Green Lantern Rebirth type epic - a story that justified retconning fan favorites out and seemingly "curing" Barbara's paralysation. What we got from Simone was good, but the rest of Barbara's last decade has been controversial from a story quality perspective.

    It's not just the story readers are evaluating, but wether her being Batgirl was worth destroying everything else that came before it.
    Well the solution certainly isn’t to destroy Barbara’s Batgirl: Cass and Steph should’ve have been erased, but now they’re being treated more disposable than ever with the way Tynion’s writing them. Steph quips and Cass punches; he makes it out like Batgirl is a costume when there is a reason we love these characters.

    That said, Cass and Steph’s approach hasn’t changed since their name change, other than they seem to be told what to do more. They can do what they do under any name and costume: Babs doesn’t get that, disabled or able-bodied, it seems.

  14. #2819
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The key difference is that Ric was reviled and Oracle and her legacies were not. Plus Oracle lasted significantly longer. And I think the bolded is selling Oracle very short. She arguably stood out more than Nightwing does when he has to share space with Batman, Red Hood, Red Robin and Robin

    Cass in particular did not get off the ground only because of what Barbara brought as Batgirl; it being a popular mantle, especially the renewed popularity due to Barbara in the DCAU, certainly helped, but to say it's the only reason is being seriously disingenuous yourself. There's not a doubt in my mind that Babs as Batgirl could have sustained an ongoing due to the strength of the Bat-brand at that time and with the right writer to highlight her strengths as a character, but it's up in the air if it would have been more or less successful than what they had with Cass at the time. And if we're giving Barbara as Batgirl points for her perseverance and not giving up, why are we not giving points to her as Oracle and Cass? Both are effective heroes despite having disabilities.

    I say all this as someone who isn't overly attached to Cass or Steph and thinks of Babs as Batgirl first and Oracle a distant second
    Its actually not that up in the air. Batgirl Year One is probably one of the most successful Batgirl stories to this day.

    Quote Originally Posted by km_sus View Post
    I think the reason Barbara is looked upon with more scrutiny is because when she went from Oracle back to Batgirl, she not only stepped on Stephanie and Cassandra's characters (to the point they were retconned out of existence) but upon her own characterisation and development, since Barbara had actually spent more time as Oracle than as Batgirl by 2011. When they pulled off their controversial move, most were probably expecting a Green Lantern Rebirth type epic - a story that justified retconning fan favorites out and seemingly "curing" Barbara's paralysation. What we got from Simone was good, but the rest of Barbara's last decade has been controversial from a story quality perspective.

    It's not just the story readers are evaluating, but wether her being Batgirl was worth destroying everything else that came before it.
    Thing is she didn't actually do any of the that, the new 52 did, but the fact she get blamed for that i thinks shows a lot of the true motivation behind a lot of the scrutiny.

  15. #2820

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Its actually not that up in the air. Batgirl Year One is probably one of the most successful Batgirl stories to this day.



    Thing is she didn't actually do any of the that, the new 52 did, but the fact she get blamed for that i thinks shows a lot of the true motivation behind a lot of the scrutiny.
    -Exactly-

    Cass and Steph shouldn’t have been erased, but even if they -were- there then it never would have been good enough. Just like how when they came back and had their own identities: nope, just not good enough. Well what are they actually doing now that’s any better to Babs or more revolutionary? Punching and talking? Why! The Genius!

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