Page 191 of 196 FirstFirst ... 91141181187188189190191192193194195 ... LastLast
Results 2,851 to 2,865 of 2926
  1. #2851
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    7,112

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    No but the point still stands: even if Cass and Steph were included in the N52, it wouldn’t have been good enough. Barbara would still have been torn down and compared to those two for disingenuous reasons such as ‘worth’ and ‘value’ and representation which, ya know? Disabled person here: nobody’s batting an eyelid at able-bodied Oracle?—when Cass and Steph can do the -EXACT- same thing no matter what name they choose, but Barbara is perpetually kept inside without her own due acting as support. If Barbara had a more blended approach then yeah, great, but Tynion’s made it clear that he only wants her to be Batgirl ‘once in a blue moon,’ I.e, never while Cassandra and Steph fail to bring anything new or innovating that Barbara wasn’t doing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    I doubt it people would complain as much if Cass and Steph were part of the New 52 as Black Bat and Spoiler. They would at least have comics to follow, instead of being mad that DC got rid of them in favor of another character.

    Having one of your favorites completely erased sucks, I know the felling since DC did the same with Wally and i hated.
    Bit correction, Black Bat and Batgirl, with all the achievements, character developments, back stories and relationships, including adoption status. The acceptable change is Cass never evil and Steph never tortured/died.

    I can't say for how much they'll complain about Babs if they have all that but Babs is Batgirl, because that never happened.

    About disability, there are people complaining about able-bodied Oracle being both Oracle and Batgirl, starting during the Burnside Era... or whichever book has Babsgirl declare she is both Batgirl and Oracle, and walking out with the Batgirl costume... accusing of DC trying to please everyone but not actually making a commitment to represent the disability, but the numbers have been getting lower and lower throughout the years.

    I don't think they're pleased, just tired and stopped paying attention. I noticed with different characters, some blogs usernames just stop posting what they used to like and started focusing on other fandom/materials.

    Edit: Wait, no. I remember. Fans responded really well to Gail Simone's Batgirl Futures End where all of them are Batgirls plus Tiffany. I don't remember if there's a disability protest, or if it's all euphoria because finally, they're acknowledged together just like the Robins, but it was the best they had in around 3 years.

    So at least, all of them being Batgirl at the same time is acceptable.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 03-05-2021 at 04:45 AM.

  2. #2852
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    10,434

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    That's a stand alone mini series, not an ongoing. I don't know if that would make for a good comparison with Cass's sustaining an ongoing series for 73 issues back in a period where comics were slightly more available than what they are now. Babs's series haven't made it much beyond 50 before needing to be rebooted, and now she's just Nightwing's supporting character.

    And again, I think if Barbara as Batgirl got an ongoing series at that time or a bit earlier, she'd move units. We just can't know for sure how it would compare to Cass's though because it didn't happen.
    A stand alone mini series that ran during the time of Cass’ ongoing, and has been more successful throughout the years then Cass series despite its length. Batgirl Year One is the pinnacle Batgirl book. Where Cass became almost unsellable by her series end.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Are you sure you aren't looking at Babs's runs with rose colored glasses? Because while Year One was great (probably one of the few Dixon comics I like), what I've read from Simone and (ugh) Burnside weren't terribly memorable. Doesn't help that the latter had Barbara looking like a teenage girl in a dumb costume. The best she's looked in recent years is 3 Jokers, and that had the misfortune of continuing the tradition of her being "The Girl" and passing her to Jason cuz it was his turn now I guess.

    I'd say the earlier Cass issues (roughly the first 30 issues or so) and even Steph's run were better not just for the two leads but also for how Barbara was written as well. I want some great Babs as Batgirl content (preferably a stand alone, continuity light one where she doesn't look like she's 14), but personally the stuff they've been producing for her is less than stellar and even the other Batgirls who I'm less fond of have better content in comparison.
    Year One is the pinnacle. That’s the only Batgirl run that has come close breaking out as general audience hit. And while you might not have liked those run you can’t deny their industry impact. Simone’s run was a pillar of the New 52, and Burnside inspired DC to change up their entire line. I think we will see those runs last through the test of time as well as, if not better, then Cass or Stephs runs have. And will probably be more influential to the what they do with Batgirl out of comics.

    Cass and Steph’s runs are runs loved by their fans, but these are not iconic runs that really broke out with general audiences or anything. And what’s more they have failed to produce any content of worth with them since.

  3. #2853
    Spectacular Member km_sus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    A stand alone mini series that ran during the time of Cass’ ongoing, and has been more successful throughout the years then Cass series despite its length. Batgirl Year One is the pinnacle Batgirl book. Where Cass became almost unsellable by her series end.
    Batgirl Issue 69 October 2005 - 26,853 - 4 Issues from the end of Cass' run.

    Batgirl Issue 45 October 2015 - 29, 276

    Batgirl Issue 11 May 2017 - 23, 338

    Batgirl Issue 33 March 2019 - 24, 034

    It's okay to not like the stories or anything, but let's not pretend and make false statements.

  4. #2854
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    10,434

    Default

    It’s not a false statement that Batgirl Year One is a far more successful series then Cass entire run, despite being just a mini. Nor is it a false statement to say, in other words, that Cass marketability took a nose dive. Why do you think Steph eventually became Batgirl. They tried a Cass mini after her solo if you remember, it bombed. They lost faith in being able to sell Cass, so much so they took her out of the role.

    Btw trying to compare market numbers with more then a decade in between doesn’t work. It would be more relevant to compare Batgirl’s current numbers with Outsiders.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 03-05-2021 at 06:08 AM.

  5. #2855
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    7,112

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    It’s not a false statement that Batgirl Year One is a far more successful series then Cass entire run, despite being just a mini. Nor is it a false statement to say Cass marketability took a nose dive. Why do you think Steph eventually became Batgirl. They tried a Cass mini after her solo if you remember, it bombed. They lost faith in being able to sell Cass, so much so they took her out of the role.

    Btw trying to compare market numbers with more then a decade in between doesn’t work. It would be more relevant to compare Batgirl’s current numbers with Outsiders.
    You also have to remember that Batgirl Year One is more accessible than Cass, both for being an origin and being a character that general audience actually know. So even if you never read a comic before, you heard the name, you see it looks familiar, and you can just pick it up.

    DC doesn't promote Cass to general audience. Her only appearance out of comics was as a costume in a Batman PC game set in TNBA era where Babs is Batgirl in story, that I played, that was pretty bad, and not, as far as I know, well known enough, that I don't even remember the title. Batman Legends I think.

    Even talking about current number is incomparable, when Babs has had a steady series for almost 10 years now with appearances in DC Superhero Girls and Arkham games while New 52 Cass show up late, history changed, a lot of times only cameo. Remember some fans refuse to buy unless it's returned exactly as Post Crisis.

    Detective sold high though, but that's Detective.

    ...btw what was this discussion about? Who's more popular and deserving to be the lead Batgirl?
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 03-05-2021 at 05:24 AM.

  6. #2856
    Spectacular Member km_sus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    It’s not a false statement that Batgirl Year One is a far more successful series then Cass entire run, despite being just a mini. And why do you think Steph eventually became Batgirl. They tried a Cass mini after her solo if you remember, it bombed. Cass marketability took a nose dive. At least they thought so, so much so they took her out of the role. Btw trying to compare market numbers with more then a decade in between doesn’t work. It would be more relevant to compare Batgirl’s current numbers with Outsiders.
    Well for one, I never said that Year One wasn't the most popular Batgirl book. You said that Cass Batgirl was "unsellable", I provided evidence to the contrary. Speaking of evidence:

    Batgirl Issue 4 October 2008 - 23,498

    Yeah the sales by the end bottomed out at 20,000, but what do expect when:
    A) You character assassinate the character beyond recognition
    and
    B) Hire the same guy who wrote that character assassination to write the mini
    Not a recipe for success.

    Also since you asked:

    Batgirl Issue 39 November 2019 - 23,889

    Outsiders Issue 6 November 2019 - 25,103

    The sales are from November to get a general idea of sales before Covid, although Outsiders retains higher numbers than Batgirl until March.

  7. #2857
    Spectacular Member km_sus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Also I'm not posting this to be mean or "own" you or anything. Just don't like the sentiment that Cass or Steph were "unsellable" as Batgirl.

  8. #2858
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,411

    Default

    Babs also appeared as Batgirl in B:TAS and TNBA and Batgirl: Year One was specifically meant to draw in the audience that grew up with that show.

    Cass hasn't really gotten a fair shake in outside media aside from a blink-and-you-miss-it cameo in JL and YJ.

  9. #2859
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    8,281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    It’s not a false statement that Batgirl Year One is a far more successful series then Cass entire run, despite being just a mini. Nor is it a false statement to say Cass marketability took a nose dive. Why do you think Steph eventually became Batgirl. They tried a Cass mini after her solo if you remember, it bombed. They lost faith in being able to sell Cass, so much so they took her out of the role.

    Btw trying to compare market numbers with more then a decade in between doesn’t work. It would be more relevant to compare Batgirl’s current numbers with Outsiders.
    They didn't lose faith in Cass, they sabotaged her for the sake of bringing back Babs. There's a difference

  10. #2860
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    10,434

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by km_sus View Post
    Well for one, I never said that Year One wasn't the most popular Batgirl book. You said that Cass Batgirl was "unsellable", I provided evidence to the contrary. Speaking of evidence:

    Batgirl Issue 4 October 2008 - 23,498

    Yeah the sales by the end bottomed out at 20,000, but what do expect when:
    A) You character assassinate the character beyond recognition
    and
    B) Hire the same guy who wrote that character assassination to write the mini
    Not a recipe for success.

    Also since you asked:

    Batgirl Issue 39 November 2019 - 23,889

    Outsiders Issue 6 November 2019 - 25,103

    The sales are from November to get a general idea of sales before Covid, although Outsiders retains higher numbers than Batgirl until March.
    But you didn’t, you just posted a bunch of sub par numbers comparing them to other sub par numbers decades later as if this somehow proves something. If anything your just proving my point. Cass wasn’t particularly selling well by the end of her series, 26k weren’t good numbers, and the attempts to sell her after just drew lower and lower numbers. The sales trend there it’s plain as day.
    Don’t worry about “owning” me or anything. Cause those numbers just prove the sentiment that Cass marketability fell through the floor. I get your trying to change the perception by bringing up and comparing them to Babs’ low as Batgirl, but comparing sub par numbers to sub par numbers doesn’t prove my statement false.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    They didn't lose faith in Cass, they sabotaged her for the sake of bringing back Babs. There's a difference
    Yet they made Steph Batgirl. I remember the newsletter at time, there was a statement along the lines of we weren’t sure who was going to be Batgirl but we knew we needed a new Batgirl.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 03-05-2021 at 05:50 AM.

  11. #2861
    Mighty Member Drako's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    BR
    Posts
    1,763

    Default

    I might be mistaken, i don't care enough to look for the numbers right now, but Babs wasn't selling well by the end of her current run too, right?

  12. #2862
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,411

    Default

    They teased us with the new Batgirl for months.

    Bryan Q Miller who had written a few episodes of Smallville episodes wanted a Babs-lite Batgirl. He chose Steph or was she was given to him by editorial. Either way, they allowed him to write Steph as Batgirl until he decided to carry it over to his Smallville Season 11 comic where he tried to introduce Steph as Nightwing and Batman's partner, which is when editorial interferred and forced him to change her to Barbara.

    It's clear that not everything editorial does is based on 'marketing' or sales. More than once they've let their personal biases affect their characters. If they were truly about the sales, numbers, marketing and being the corporate IP farm they are supposed to be, DC would be more like Marvel right now instead of a playground for Boomers.

  13. #2863
    Spectacular Member km_sus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2020
    Posts
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    But you didn’t, you just posted a bunch of sub par numbers comparing them to other sub par numbers decades later as if this somehow proves something. If anything your just proving my point. Cass wasn’t particularly selling well by the end of her series, 26k weren’t good numbers, and the attempts to sell her after just drew lower and lower numbers. The sales trend there it’s plain as day.
    Don’t worry about “owning” me or anything. Cause those numbers just prove the sentiment that Cass marketability fell through the floor. I get your trying to change the perception by bringing up and comparing them to Babs’ low as Batgirl, but comparing sub par numbers to sub par numbers doesn’t prove my statement false.
    Huh? I posted those numbers to compare the "unsellable" (your words) numbers of the end of Cass' run to random points in Barbara's run years apart, to show that if you consider Cass' numbers unsellable, then you must also consider Barbara's to be unsellable too. Even the 08 mini's numbers are similar to the end of Babs' run.

    Compare:
    Batgirl Issue 46 November 2003 - 27,120
    to
    Batgirl Issue 46 December 2015 - 27,591

    You can see further proof that with their first continuous run, on the same issue, that Cass and Barbara have almost identical numbers.
    In fact, I went the extra mile and pulled up the Batgirl Year One numbers. Comparing the series on December 2002 you have:

    Batgirl Year One Issue 1 - 34,697
    and
    Batgirl Issue 35 - 33,888

    You can see that Year One didn't blow Cass out of the water then either. Your claim that Cass is 'unmarketable' or other such ideas just isn't true - and they certainly didn't get rid of her because of poor sales.
    Last edited by km_sus; 03-05-2021 at 06:26 AM.

  14. #2864
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    27,190

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Wow! Way to miss the point completely dude!!

    The issue here isnít them sharing the name, itís how often if ever Babs gets to BE Batgirl!

    ĎCos hereís the thing? The other two? Exact same shit no matter what name. But Batgirl vs Oracle? Two -completely- different ways of working and aspect of the character, often shunting Babs off into meaningless support and exposition?

    Can they share it? Absolutely. But it should be -equal-


    And hey: nearly a decade of Babs as Batgirl. Did ya stop to think? Maybe thatís where the angerís coming from? Having grown to adore her during all that time? But you got just as long with Cass and Steph as Batgirl, and other characters in fact maybe -you- shouldnít just suck it up! Itís been, like, what? Long enough?
    Babs was Batgirl from 1967 to 1988. She has appeared in far more movies, shows and games as Batgirl or Oracle than Cass and Steph. She is in no way the one shortchanged Batgirl here.

  15. #2865
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    8,281

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Yet they made Steph Batgirl. I remember the newsletter at time, there was a statement along the lines of we weren’t sure who was going to be Batgirl but we knew we needed a new Batgirl.
    Yeah, because they didn't have the guts to get rid of Oracle. They were clearly moving that way, or else we wouldn't have had an Oracle mini series called 'The Cure'.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •