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  1. #2866
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    The ultimate problem with Babs as Batgirl, compared to Cass or Steph, is that she lacks a convincing motivation beyond 'was Batgirl in the Silver Age'.

    Her original origin was dressing up as Batman and stumbling across a crime. Not exactly compelling material, especially in a Noir driven franchise as Batman. I honestly couldn't tell you her modern origin, and that really says something, IMO.

    What exactly is her compelling motivation? Because compared to Cass, Steph and most other characters, she's had it easy. No dead parents, a father who's relatively respected, comfortable middle class and apparently, she's had enough extracurriculars to be just as effective a crime fighter as the guy who poured millions into his study to be the best crime fighter in the world.

    As internal logic evolves, Babs only falls farther behind, IMO.

  2. #2867
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by km_sus View Post
    Huh? I posted those numbers to compare the "unsellable" (your words) numbers of the end of Cass' run to random points in Barbara's run years apart, to show that if you consider Cass' numbers unsellable, then you must also consider Barbara's to be unsellable too. Even the 08 mini's numbers are similar to the end of Babs' run.

    Compare:
    Batgirl Issue 46 November 2003 - 27,120
    to
    Batgirl Issue 46 December 2015 - 27,591

    and you can see further proof that with their first continuous run, on the same issue, that Cass and Barbara have almost identical numbers.
    In fact, I went the extra mile and pulled up the Batgirl Year One numbers. Compare December 2002 with:

    Batgirl Year One Issue 1 - 34,697
    and
    Batgirl Issue 35 - 33,888

    You can see that Year One didn't blow Cass out of the water then either. Your claim that Cass is 'unmarketable' or other such ideas just isn't true - and they certainly didn't get rid of her because of poor sales.
    Comparing sub par numbers to other sub par numbers doesn’t prove those numbers weren’t sub par or that Cass’ marketability didn’t become poor and only got poorer. You can keep doing it all you want, but it doesn’t invalidate my statement. Cass marketability got low and then lower, to the point they lost confidence with her in the role. The numbers prove that. You basically trying to dispute my statement with Babs is selling poorly too. Which, even if we ignore the decades difference in market circumstances, ok Babs is selling poor too. Doesn’t make my initial statement false. Difference between Babs and Cass though when it come to selling poorly is Babs has rebounded from negative sales trends before, and her marketability expands beyond just floppies.

    And Batgirl Year One’s success is in its longevity. This is a book and story that continued to sell beyond its initial publishing. You can still find this book on selves. Cass’ series though, or any other Batgirl series beyond the current run. Good luck.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 03-05-2021 at 06:57 AM.

  3. #2868

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    The ultimate problem with Babs as Batgirl, compared to Cass or Steph, is that she lacks a convincing motivation beyond 'was Batgirl in the Silver Age'.

    Her original origin was dressing up as Batman and stumbling across a crime. Not exactly compelling material, especially in a Noir driven franchise as Batman. I honestly couldn't tell you her modern origin, and that really says something, IMO.

    What exactly is her compelling motivation? Because compared to Cass, Steph and most other characters, she's had it easy. No dead parents, a father who's relatively respected, comfortable middle class and apparently, she's had enough extracurriculars to be just as effective a crime fighter as the guy who poured millions into his study to be the best crime fighter in the world.

    As internal logic evolves, Babs only falls farther behind, IMO.
    Excuse me? What a gross oversimplification, let me correct you accordingly.

    Babs modern origins is as follows: though originally inspired by what Batman did, her real motivation came from her father as she was inspired by him but aware of the obstacles he faced due to corruption in the GCPD. Thus, Batgirl was born as a combination of both sources of inspiration.

    She doubted herself and her motivations severely, opting to step back from crime-fighting for re-evaluation...then tragedy struck. She was shot, paralysed and brutalised and -that- was what became her new drive.

    Her motivation stems from her empathy: of knowing what it is to feel helpless and hopeless, to be driven mad by the sheer randomness of how tragedy strikes and so she strives to make sure nobody else suffers as she does. Babs Batgirl is very much connected to the actual people of Gotham because she’s lived those issues. Hence some of the best moments in her run, when it’s her connecting both with the people she’s helping -and- even the criminals she’s facing in some instances. It’s something that isn’t prominent as Oracle, opting instead for a hardened approach first and foremost because she’s behind the screens. She’s detached; she isn’t facing the issues directly, but navigating other people into them.

    Babs most prominent villains in her origin also stem from a very real issue she faces as a hero: PTSD. Mirror, for example, whom victimised others in lieu of it being ‘fair, right and just.’

    Babs compelling motivation is the people she wants to help first and foremost: to say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous and untrue.

  4. #2869
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Excuse me? What a gross oversimplification, let me correct you accordingly.

    Babs modern origins is as follows: though originally inspired by what Batman did, her real motivation came from her father as she was inspired by him but aware of the obstacles he faced due to corruption in the GCPD. Thus, Batgirl was born as a combination of both sources of inspiration.

    She doubted herself and her motivations severely, opting to step back from crime-fighting for re-evaluation...then tragedy struck. She was shot, paralysed and brutalised and -that- was what became her new drive.

    Her motivation stems from her empathy: of knowing what it is to feel helpless and hopeless, to be driven mad by the sheer randomness of how tragedy strikes and so she strives to make sure nobody else suffers as she does. Babs Batgirl is very much connected to the actual people of Gotham because she’s lived those issues. Hence some of the best moments in her run, when it’s her connecting both with the people she’s helping -and- even the criminals she’s facing in some instances. It’s something that isn’t prominent as Oracle, opting instead for a hardened approach first and foremost because she’s behind the screens. She’s detached; she isn’t facing the issues directly, but navigating other people into them.

    Babs most prominent villains in her origin also stem from a very real issue she faces as a hero: PTSD. Mirror, for example, whom victimised others in lieu of it being ‘fair, right and just.’

    Babs compelling motivation is the people she wants to help first and foremost: to say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous and untrue.
    Being a hero to be a hero is underwhelming motivation, overall. That's the same for Hal Jordon and Barry Allen of the same Silver Age background, and why they are so underwhelming as characters. Babs has an advantage over them at least in a background that contrasts with her character but even that doesn't do much.

    Which is probably why the main villains who are used as arc villains are her brother or Joker. She doesn't serve as a great foil to any other of the rogues unfortunately.

  5. #2870
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Except the Nightwings got killed off and the narrative went out of itsí way to justify why there can only be one and only forever and ever. It was equally celebrated by fans. Those SAME fans who devalue Batgirl in such a way. Itís the fact that DC is so keen to give in to such nonsense rather than making an actual effort to DIFFERENTIATE every character and their approach thatís BS.

    Her approach as Batgirl absolutely can stand out, because as you said: if Nightwing can get get away with it then Batgirl absolutely should be afforded that same luxury
    Ah, yes, Lor-Zod is the one true Nightwing.

    Yes it amuses me greatly that Richard Grayson went to SUPERMAN for advice when he decided to stop being Robin... and somehow decided to name himself after a Kryptonian deity.... who is a literal bat-god.

    Don't believe me? check out this Nightwing look:
    Kara_Zor-L_Nightwing_001.jpg
    Yes, that's Karen Star(Aka Kara Zor-L, aka Powergirl)

    That said, I wish they'd bring back Cheyenne Freemont.... who also used the name Nightwing. Maybe give her a different one?
    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Thing is she didn't actually do any of the that, the new 52 did, but the fact she get blamed for that i thinks shows a lot of the true motivation behind a lot of the scrutiny.
    New 52 mangled continuity, by design. :/ The writers wanted to be able to ignore parts they didn't like.

  6. #2871
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Being a hero to be a hero is underwhelming motivation, overall. That's the same for Hal Jordon and Barry Allen of the same Silver Age background, and why they are so underwhelming as characters. Babs has an advantage over them at least in a background that contrasts with her character but even that doesn't do much.

    Which is probably why the main villains who are used as arc villains are her brother or Joker. She doesn't serve as a great foil to any other of the rogues unfortunately.
    Seeing as how they sometimes overdo it with making heroes fueled by angst and tragedy, I think Barbara (or Hal or Barry) being a hero just because it's the right thing to do can be refreshing.

    They decided to give Barry a tragic motivation, and it blows.

  7. #2872
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Seeing as how they sometimes overdo it with making heroes fueled by angst and tragedy, I think Barbara (or Hal or Barry) being a hero just because it's the right thing to do can be refreshing.

    They decided to give Barry a tragic motivation, and it blows.
    It can be, but it needs a compelling hook or contrast, all the same. Remember, at the end of the day these are 2D characters who never move with no tone of voice whatsoever (discussing the comics, obviously)

    Nemesis in Suicide Squad was a hero who did the right thing because it was the right thing. In that book, he stood out.

    But when he was partnered with Wonder Woman, he was as interesting as toast. Because next to the premier DC heroine, doing right because it is right is standard fair.

    Even in Gotham, Babs doesn't stand out enough. Dick has the 'Bat who smiles' on lockdown

    And as I've alluded elsewhere, internal logic is hot on Babs' heels.

    Batman's prowess comes from a vaguely defined journey of studying under masters all around the world. Kathy Kane's came from a father who brought her special forces tutors. Dick was a trained acrobat before becoming Robin, and further training under Bruce. Both Tim and Jason trained heavily under Bruce.

    Babs can do everything Bruce can...because of after school gymnastics? As origin filler goes, it's underwhelming.

  8. #2873
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Babs can do everything Bruce can...because of after school gymnastics? As origin filler goes, it's underwhelming.
    Ballet, gymnastic, and judo, I think...

    She can't though. As far as martial skills go she's way below Bruce and Cass, and her detective skills was trained by Batman and Robin, and/or by following her father's cases, depending on which version.

    In the past version, the difference is not as visible because Bruce himself was not the insane martial artists, best of everything that he is today.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 03-05-2021 at 09:36 AM.

  9. #2874
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    It can be, but it needs a compelling hook or contrast, all the same. Remember, at the end of the day these are 2D characters who never move with no tone of voice whatsoever (discussing the comics, obviously)

    Nemesis in Suicide Squad was a hero who did the right thing because it was the right thing. In that book, he stood out.

    But when he was partnered with Wonder Woman, he was as interesting as toast. Because next to the premier DC heroine, doing right because it is right is standard fair.
    That wasn't the issue with Nemesis in Wonder Woman. The issue is that he was a sexist boor and unlikable creep who was a poor man's substitute for Steve Trevor. He even has some dialogue in Amazons Attack suggesting he isn't all that heroic.

    Steve Trevor was a straightforward hero in the Wonder Woman movie and that motivation worked just fine.

  10. #2875
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Yes it amuses me greatly that Richard Grayson went to SUPERMAN for advice when he decided to stop being Robin... and somehow decided to name himself after a Kryptonian deity.... who is a literal bat-god.
    Of course, to be fair, that was a much late retcon that changed what Nightwing was on Krypton. Which was quite annoying. Though I liked Chris.

    It can be, but it needs a compelling hook or contrast, all the same. Remember, at the end of the day these are 2D characters who never move with no tone of voice whatsoever (discussing the comics, obviously)
    I just don't really agree. Being a hero because one wants to be hero, to save people or even not as a calling but as way to both do good and have fun is perfectly fine with me. I like it much better than being motivated by tragedy (a little of that for variety is fine, but it's so overdone now an annoying retconned onto characters like Barry). That that hero be called "Batgirl" isn't really important, but Barbara did it because of circumstance. It certainly made more sense to me that Steph sacrificing the identity that she made for herself to take on someone else's (I'm one of the few Steph fans that much preferred her as Spoiler and found Batgirl to be a demotion). The only reasons for Cass to be Batgirl (instead of use another name) is because of a sort inheritance aspect from Barbara and Bruce, both of whom she'd only fairly recently met.

    Steve Trevor was a straightforward hero in the Wonder Woman movie and that motivation worked just fine.
    Absolutely.

    In the past version, the difference is not as visible because Bruce himself was not the insane martial artists, best of everything that he is today.
    Liked him better then. Several human heroes are so OP now that they barely pass as human. Of course, I'm against a lot of the adding power to the non-human ones, too. I can't think of any that have had varied power levels that I prefer at the highest power level I've seen (at least off the top of my head). But that's just one of those things - some people like God-tier powers more than others.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-05-2021 at 09:47 AM.

  11. #2876
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That wasn't the issue with Nemesis in Wonder Woman. The issue is that he was a sexist boor and unlikable creep who was a poor man's substitute for Steve Trevor. He even has some dialogue in Amazons Attack suggesting he isn't all that heroic.

    Steve Trevor was a straightforward hero in the Wonder Woman movie and that motivation worked just fine.
    There were a lot of issues with Tom in Wonder Woman

    And I clarified I was discussing comics for a reason :P

  12. #2877
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    Personally I think not every Superhero needs to have a deep or dramatic reason for wanting to do good. In fact it helps Babs stand out among the rest that she didn't really have one, beyond the fact that she was raised by Jim Gordon and that's obviously going to engender a deep sense of civic responsibility and sense of right that she carries into being Batgirl.

    Jim would not let her join the police force and she was constantly underestimated for her gender, and then she goes on to emulate and be inspired by someone who she sees as doing real good in the city (and this is Gotham, cushy living is a rarity more than the norm). She chances upon a chance to wear the suit and then it kickstarts from there.

    As far as training, she hasn't been self-trained since Post-Crisis where they made her an official protege that Bruce gave the full training regiment to.

    I feel like she plays off the other Rogues fine when she gets to interact with them and isn't giving them a pass for the sake of the plot (Cough)The Sirens(Cough).

  13. #2878
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Personally I think not every Superhero needs to have a deep or dramatic reason for wanting to do good.
    I strongly agree.

    Jim would not let her join the police force and she was constantly underestimated for her gender, and then she goes on to emulate and be inspired by someone who she sees as doing real good in the city (and this is Gotham, cushy living is a rarity more than the norm). She chances upon a chance to wear the suit and then it kickstarts from there.
    That I do not like. I didn't like Batgirl: Year One (I don't like her as a protege, and I hate that she'd have been dead immediately if not for Batman). She was a grown woman, and her father had absolutely no ability to "let" her do anything or forbid her. If she'd wanted that, she could have done it, even if it'd meant going elsewhere (and I certainly don't like the notion of a Jim Gordon who would try to control his adult child's career choices by intervening when she applied places). Not to mention the profound lack of personal respect for her that would be.

    As far as training, she hasn't been self-trained since Post-Crisis where they made her an official protege that Bruce gave the full training regiment to.
    Like I said, I hate that. I hate her being subordinate to him. I hate the power imbalance where he knew her identity and she didn't know his. It's a huge downgrade from how she started out. I'm perfectly fine with her being self-trained, like the majority of old-school heroes were.

    I would like her developing more of her own rogues, though. I really think the adults need to leave Gotham and not be in Bruce's sphere of influence if they are to be viewed as independent heroes. And I think the characters are better served by having their own villains (and that does not mean the Joker's girlfriend or Luthor's cousin or Sivana's kid - spinoff villains associate with their parent property).
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-05-2021 at 05:26 PM.

  14. #2879
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    That I do not like. I didn't like Batgirl: Year One (I don't like her as a protege, and I hate that she'd have been dead immediately if not for Batman). She was a grown woman, and her father had absolutely no ability to "let" her do anything or forbid her. If she'd wanted that, she could have done it, even if it'd meant going elsewhere (and I certainly don't like the notion of a Jim Gordon who would try to control his adult child's career choices by intervening when she applied places). Not to mention the profound lack of personal respect for her that would be.

    Like I said, I hate that. I hate her being subordinate to him. I hate the power imbalance where he knew her identity and she didn't know his. It's a huge downgrade from how she started out. I'm perfectly fine with her being self-trained, like the majority of old-school heroes were.

    I would like her developing more of her own rogues, though. I really think the adults need to leave Gotham and not be in Bruce's sphere of influence if they are to be viewed as independent heroes. And I think the characters are better served by having their own villains (and that does not mean the Joker's girlfriend or Luthor's cousin or Sivana's kid - spinoff villains associate with their parent property).
    I guess I'm more in favor of it because I was introduced to adaptions where Batgirl was an equal partner to Batman along with Robin, or even Batman's only partner.

    I also like Babs and Bruce's relationship, so, again, personal bias .

  15. #2880
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I guess I'm more in favor of it because I was introduced to adaptions where Batgirl was an equal partner to Batman along with Robin, or even Batman's only partner.
    But what you are saying is the absolute reverse of that. It makes a her a sidekick (or at least trainee) of Batman's instead of the peer she was when introduced. It's an inherently unequal relationship, IMO. It can become one of equals, but alas, not for Batman. I keep hoping for it with Batman and Nightwing, but it never does. Then again, no one can be his equal these days. I don't like him still ordering around the adults, giving them missions, etc. at all. It's why I want them out of Gotham. I don't want them working for him, which is what it all to often in the modern era. I swear sometimes he treated Dick as more a partner instead of underling in the '40s than in the '00s.

    I also like Babs and Bruce's relationship, so, again, personal bias .
    Not me at all, I admit. I'm very fond of her working primarily independently, rather than with Batman. She did that quite a bit. Then she and grown Robin worked as peers in the1970s, which I also really liked.

    I don't like Batman at the center of all the relationships. In the 1970s, she was much more friendly and worked much more often with Robin. I liked Spoiler working with Tim, and not with Batman, too.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-05-2021 at 05:43 PM.

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