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  1. #2881
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I kind of like the idea of Barbara becoming Bruce's main partner after Dick leaves to become Nightwing. Kind of like DCAU, but strictly platonic. It's why I don't really see the need for another Robin after Dick leaves.

    But I'd like that to be balanced out with the pre-COIE stuff where she was more independent and self taught instead of actually being trained by Bruce. And definitely no him revealing his ID to her "when she's ready," have her figure it out on her own.

  2. #2882
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    But what you are saying is the absolute reverse of that. It makes a her a sidekick (or at least trainee) of Batman's instead of the peer she was when introduced. It's an inherently unequal relationship, IMO. It can become one of equals, but alas, not for Batman. I keep hoping for it with Batman and Nightwing, but it never does. Then again, no one can be his equal these days. I don't like him still ordering around the adults, giving them missions, etc. at all. It's why I want them out of Gotham. I don't want them working for him, which is what it all to often in the modern era. I swear sometimes he treated Dick as more a partner instead of underling in the '40s than in the '00s.
    I like sidekicks and I feel like they can still play off Batman well in their own way, so it doesn't really bother me that much.

    I feel like Nightwing is there, depending on the writer.

    Not me at all, I admit. I'm very fond of her working primarily independently, rather than with Batman. She did that quite a bit. Then she and grown Robin worked as peers in the1970s, which I also really liked.
    Maybe an indenpent but involved partner? That was my sense of her in Post-Crisis where she was often doing her own stuff but worked a lot with Bruce and Dick and was there with Bruce when Dick was gone.
    I don't like Batman at the center of all the relationships. In the 1970s, she was much more friendly and worked much more often with Robin. I liked Spoiler working with Tim, and not with Batman, too.
    Batman's the main character and the franchise center, I think it makes sense he'd be the center of the character relationships in some form or another.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I kind of like the idea of Barbara becoming Bruce's main partner after Dick leaves to become Nightwing. Kind of like DCAU, but strictly platonic. It's why I don't really see the need for another Robin after Dick leaves.

    But I'd like that to be balanced out with the pre-COIE stuff where she was more independent and self taught instead of actually being trained by Bruce. And definitely no him revealing his ID to her "when she's ready," have her figure it out on her own.
    I think that was more or less true Post-Crisis.

    I did like how he revealed his identity to her by showing her his parents grave in Batgirl: Year One and she finally "got" Batman.

  3. #2883
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    There were a lot of issues with Tom in Wonder Woman

    And I clarified I was discussing comics for a reason :P
    Yeah, obviously.

    If it worked for the movies, I don't see why it wouldn't work for the comics. Being too heroic was not the reason people hated Tom Tressor in Wonder Woman.

    Hell, going by your logic, Barbara being heroic for the sake of it isn't a problem because she does stand out among the Batfamily in that regard. The only other member that fits that description is Tim and he was created long after Barbara debuted.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 03-05-2021 at 11:19 PM.

  4. #2884
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Yeah, obviously.

    If it worked for the movies, I don't see why it wouldn't work for the comics. Being too heroic was not the reason people hated Tom Tressor in Wonder Woman.

    Hell, going by your logic, Barbara being heroic for the sake of it isn't a problem because she does stand out among the Batfamily in that regard. The only other member that fits that description is Tim and he was created long after Barbara debuted.
    Because in a movie, an actor can use their charisma to sell any character, and they only have to do it for a short amount of time in ONE story.

    In comics, characters need to stand out for many stories, in actions and written dialogue. In Suicide Squad, Tressor stood in contrast to the likes of Deadshot and even anti-heroes like Rick Flag. Eventually, his plotline climaxed with him threatening to beat the hell out of Waller, to her face.

    Somehow, I doubt Diana gave him cause to make threats like that

    Comic characters need contrast, and they need a hook. Tim is the family Spock, joining to balance out Batman's darkness. And a big part of his arc was that he was the least capable of the Batclan (at least when introduced)

  5. #2885
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Of course, to be fair, that was a much late retcon that changed what Nightwing was on Krypton. Which was quite annoying. Though I liked Chris.
    "Chris Kent" aka Lor-Zod? Funny thing.. didn't he come AFTER Karen Starr's tenure as Nightwing? Not sure if any of the older books used the bat-monster look for Nightwing before the one where Powergirl went to Kandor. But again... I'm not sure what actual level of retconning the nature of Nightwing was. I didn't read any of the actual OLD stories where he came up. I did however draw a diagram after doing research on the wiki.
    NightwingDiagram.jpg
    I don't think it has literally EVERY user though.
    I just don't really agree. Being a hero because one wants to be hero, to save people or even not as a calling but as way to both do good and have fun is perfectly fine with me. I like it much better than being motivated by tragedy (a little of that for variety is fine, but it's so overdone now an annoying retconned onto characters like Barry). That that hero be called "Batgirl" isn't really important, but Barbara did it because of circumstance. It certainly made more sense to me that Steph sacrificing the identity that she made for herself to take on someone else's (I'm one of the few Steph fans that much preferred her as Spoiler and found Batgirl to be a demotion). The only reasons for Cass to be Batgirl (instead of use another name) is because of a sort inheritance aspect from Barbara and Bruce, both of whom she'd only fairly recently met.
    This reminds me of Charlotte Gage-Radcliffe. Oracle was like "and this is why you DON'T want to be Batgirl"... not that it really made much difference. The only real change was that "Charlie" decided to use the moniker "Misfit" instead.
    Absolutely.

    Liked him better then. Several human heroes are so OP now that they barely pass as human. Of course, I'm against a lot of the adding power to the non-human ones, too. I can't think of any that have had varied power levels that I prefer at the highest power level I've seen (at least off the top of my head). But that's just one of those things - some people like God-tier powers more than others.
    the issue is that DC's approach to team up tries to make the "weaker" heroes look good.. every single time...

    It's fine having Batman NOT beat up evil Kryptonians and do other stuff while Superman does the fist fights. But the writers apparently feel it would make Batman look weak... to abstain from fighting people who can literally throw BUILDINGS at him.

  6. #2886
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Because in a movie, an actor can use their charisma to sell any character, and they only have to do it for a short amount of time in ONE story.

    In comics, characters need to stand out for many stories, in actions and written dialogue. In Suicide Squad, Tressor stood in contrast to the likes of Deadshot and even anti-heroes like Rick Flag. Eventually, his plotline climaxed with him threatening to beat the hell out of Waller, to her face.

    Somehow, I doubt Diana gave him cause to make threats like that

    Comic characters need contrast, and they need a hook. Tim is the family Spock, joining to balance out Batman's darkness. And a big part of his arc was that he was the least capable of the Batclan (at least when introduced)
    To be honest Tim never really seemed that incapable, insofar as we saw more intimate build up to him getting up to prime Robin level than what we usually get.

  7. #2887
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    To be honest Tim never really seemed that incapable, insofar as we saw more intimate build up to him getting up to prime Robin level than what we usually get.
    Yeah I always saw Tim as "Robin: the newbie". He's not bad just a rookie.

  8. #2888
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    After thinking about this more... I really wanna see a story where they somehow come up with an excuse for EVERYONE who has ever used the name Nightwing to show up. There's enough of them that I doubt that ANY of them has met all of the others. Kal-El for example, knows of or has met in person, Van-Zee, Lor-Zod, Karen Starr, and Richard Grayson. But how much does he know about Cheyenne Freemont or Jason Todd?

    Also, Richard Grayson, knows Kal-El, knows who Van-Zee is, has probably met Karen Starr, knows Cheyenne Freemont better than he wanted to, and has probably heard of Lor-Zod's existence. But does he know Karen Starr used to be Nightwing? Has he actually MET Lor-Zod?

    And so on.

  9. #2889
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    The Batfam should always be tailored around Batman. It’s his franchise and the family is built around him so it only makes sense for him to be the center of it. It doesn’t necessarily matter whose under the cowl, be it Bruce, Dick, Terry, Damian, Fox or the inevitable Joker run.
    with the only exception being when the “Batman” is an illegitimate one (such as Gordon’s midlife crisis where he was never recognized in universe as being the Batman).

  10. #2890
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    "Chris Kent" aka Lor-Zod? Funny thing.. didn't he come AFTER Karen Starr's tenure as Nightwing?
    I just mentioned him because he was associated with Nightwing-God, but I still like him. I just meant that Nightwing and godness was retconned in long after Dick Grayson took the title of Nightwing. At least, as far as I know. I've never been interested in Power Girl. Not saying I dislike her - just never cared enough about her to read about her, so only see her when she shows up elsewhere.

    The Batfam should always be tailored around Batman. Itís his franchise and the family is built around him so it only makes sense for him to be the center of it. It doesnít necessarily matter whose under the cowl, be it Bruce, Dick, Terry, Damian, Fox or the inevitable Joker run.
    I understand the perceptive, but frankly, I've always liked other characters more than him, and would rather their stories been about them, not him. About progressing them as characters, and not sacrificing them to his story/character needs. That's why I like them to grow out of his shadow, do their own things, have strong connections outside of him, etc. As long as they are in his books/city/sphere of influence, they are likely to serve his needs first, even in their own books, and that's not okay. That's, to some degree to me*, what civilian supporting casts and sidekicks are for. When they have their own books, they need to be treated as heroes in their own rights, with their own narrative needs coming first, not his.

    * I say "to a degree" because I think consistency in characterization of supporting casts matters too/ They shouldn't behave way OOC because the main character needs them too. And I think they should have their own lives (even if we don't see them, we should have a sense they exist). The characters may only exist to serve the main character, but they shouldn't behave as though they know that.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-06-2021 at 01:39 PM.

  11. #2891
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    I didn't mean that they should only exist in service to the Bat (lord knows I don't want that) and not have their own lives or adventures. I more of meant that "who" and "what" the Batfam is should be crafted around the Bat (whoever it is that's under the cowl) opposed to being an umbrella that every single Bat related character somehow falls under.

  12. #2892
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I just mentioned him because he was associated with Nightwing-God, but I still like him. I just meant that Nightwing and godness was retconned in long after Dick Grayson took the title of Nightwing. At least, as far as I know. I've never been interested in Power Girl. Not saying I dislike her - just never cared enough about her to read about her, so only see her when she shows up elsewhere.
    I was asking because all you said was "Chris" and I wasn't really sure which one. I think Lor-Zod/Chris Kent is a cool character myself. I tend to use the name Lor-zod because well... it's kind of important? Also there's that other guy too now.

    Well Powergirl as Nightwing was, IIRC, technically a Supergirl comic book See, there's the Nightwing/Flamebird duo, and Supergirl was Flamebird. The two of them were visiting Kandor.

    the way I understand it, and I'm not 100% sure, the name was always said to be an English translation of a Kryptonian deity's name.... But.... I think that the actual deity never actually appeared except as a name in the old stories.

  13. #2893
    Invincible Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    . . . the way I understand it, and I'm not 100% sure, the name was always said to be an English translation of a Kryptonian deity's name.... But.... I think that the actual deity never actually appeared except as a name in the old stories.
    I just thought they were Kryptonian birds that were similar to a bat and robin?

    (Of course, that was from back in the 1960s.)



  14. #2894
    Mighty Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    "Chris Kent" aka Lor-Zod? Funny thing.. didn't he come AFTER Karen Starr's tenure as Nightwing? Not sure if any of the older books used the bat-monster look for Nightwing before the one where Powergirl went to Kandor. But again... I'm not sure what actual level of retconning the nature of Nightwing was. I didn't read any of the actual OLD stories where he came up. I did however draw a diagram after doing research on the wiki.
    NightwingDiagram.jpg
    I don't think it has literally EVERY user though.
    This reminds me of Charlotte Gage-Radcliffe. Oracle was like "and this is why you DON'T want to be Batgirl"... not that it really made much difference. The only real change was that "Charlie" decided to use the moniker "Misfit" instead.
    the issue is that DC's approach to team up tries to make the "weaker" heroes look good.. every single time...

    It's fine having Batman NOT beat up evil Kryptonians and do other stuff while Superman does the fist fights. But the writers apparently feel it would make Batman look weak... to abstain from fighting people who can literally throw BUILDINGS at him.
    I completely forgot that Terry wore the Nightwing costume for a issue in one of thoses Batman Beyond books.

    This isn't a controversial opinion, but i'm sure Dick Grayson AND Jason Todd fans would rather forget anything Bruce Jones related, including Cheyenne Freemont.

    I just realized that Jason is the only one who at one point used all the regular personas of other former Robins.
    Nightwing in the Bruce Jones arc and Red Robin in Countdown. He was also "Batman" in Battle for the Cowl.

  15. #2895
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    The less said about TentaTodd the better.

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