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  1. #2791
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    The thing with trying to do a romance with Wonder Woman or Zatanna, is that beyond the odd guest appearance, it can't work just for logistic reasons. If the relationship gets serious then they're going to be in his books all the time, which they don't fit into the street level stories that most of Batman comics are about, and they realistically outpower him. There's no way he can be overshadowed in his own book.
    You could do a "Wonder Woman and Batman" book much like the Superman and Wonder Woman book, but it still should have too much impact in all his books.
    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Batman already has like his Bat & Tec books and then him being in team books with JL or with Supes. All these 4 books dont really correlate with each other much. Then you would have books that use Batman's name to draw more sales like Batman & the Outsiders, Batman & Catwoman, etc... In the end, what really matters are the 2 mainline books. Like for example, when writers from Harley books use Batman's characters, the potrayal of those characters in Harley books are not considered to be the cannon and the status of those characters cant be changed in Harley's books.
    So I guess what would happen if Bruce romance Wondy or Zatanna is they're gonna publish a WonderBat or Batanna book, while the regular Batman and Detective Comics they'll only appear as cameos while 99% of the book focuses on Bruce in Gotham while the waifus are around the world saving people or in the House of Mystery

  2. #2792
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    The thing with trying to do a romance with Wonder Woman or Zatanna, is that beyond the odd guest appearance, it can't work just for logistic reasons. If the relationship gets serious then they're going to be in his books all the time, which they don't fit into the street level stories that most of Batman comics are about, and they realistically outpower him. There's no way he can be overshadowed in his own book.
    You could do a "Wonder Woman and Batman" book much like the Superman and Wonder Woman book, but it still should have too much impact in all his books.
    Yep, no need to put a character like Wonder Woman's world/mythos on hold so she can be stuck in Gotham just so Bat-writers can give another reason to stroke Bruce's ego. And even that Superman/Wonder Woman book just turned into another Superman book.

  3. #2793
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Modern Joker is an uncharismatic bore of a character for many reasons but the worst thing about him is the "he's too crazy to predict".

    You might as well just say "a wizard did it" in the place of the aforementioned to justify how's able to pull plans or victories out of his ass because that is the level of amateur writing we're talking about.

    This goes for his girlfriend as well.

  4. #2794
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Modern Joker is an uncharismatic bore of a character for many reasons but the worst thing about him is the "he's too crazy to predict".

    You might as well just say "a wizard did it" in the place of the aforementioned to justify how's able to pull plans or victories out of his ass because that is the level of amateur writing we're talking about.

    This goes for his girlfriend as well.
    Pretty dead on.

    I think a component that is missing from modern Joker is just that he's not funny. The best Joker writers can make him genuinely funny in a disarming way, and without that, he's just a nothing character doing blandly "shocking" things.

    One of the best things about BTAS being on a kids network was that the censorship forced the creators to leave the Joker's worst actions to implication and let his on screen actions be outside the box and clever. And when he had clearer murderous intentions he'd at least be thwarted.

  5. #2795
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I think a component that is missing from modern Joker is just that he's not funny. The best Joker writers can make him genuinely funny in a disarming way, and without that, he's just a nothing character doing blandly "shocking" things.
    I know I'm in the minority, but I still prefer the earliest Joker: theatrical, a great planner, completely sane, but not in the least funny.

  6. #2796
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Modern Joker is an uncharismatic bore of a character for many reasons but the worst thing about him is the "he's too crazy to predict".

    You might as well just say "a wizard did it" in the place of the aforementioned to justify how's able to pull plans or victories out of his ass because that is the level of amateur writing we're talking about.

    This goes for his girlfriend as well.
    Yep, if I'm reading a Joker book and I immediately find myself going 'yep that guy is going to die horribly' then the character is neither unpredictable, funny nor is it an engaging story because somebody died horribly in it.

  7. #2797

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    Cassandra and Stephanie aren’t in the same league with Babs as Batgirl. The Batgirl role isn’t that of a side-kick’s, it’s a statement: it stands for independence and defiance against adversity. It’s about being underestimated and triumphing because of those assumptions: all Cass and Steph bring to the role is that of a side-kick. A soldier in Cass’ case.

    Barbara as Batgirl represented a true people’s hero: someone who’s known tragedy and given her life to ensure that no-one should ever suffer that way again. Her sense of empathy is what drives her and her iron-will shines brightest as Batgirl because, with half the tech but twice the brain, she really showcases how important it is to -never- give up.

    Steph and Cass aren’t so compelling because they can operate the same way and have the same stories under any name.

  8. #2798
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Cassandra and Stephanie aren’t in the same league with Babs as Batgirl. The Batgirl role isn’t that of a side-kick’s, it’s a statement: it stands for independence and defiance against adversity. It’s about being underestimated and triumphing because of those assumptions: all Cass and Steph bring to the role is that of a side-kick. A soldier in Cass’ case.
    I don't get that at all. I do hate sidekick (or even protege) Batgirl, but that was retconned onto Babs before Steph even became Batgirl, and in first era as Batgirl Steph overcame far more adversity than Barbara in her first era as Batgirl (who overcame none at all at that time, which fine, because I still liked her). Mind you, I dislike Steph as Batgirl, and much prefer her as Spoiler for independence and not bowing to Batman's wishes. I just don't see those as "Batgirl" things at all. And while I do like Barbara becoming unparalyzed she should be in her 30s and not go back to the title of Batgirl.

    Barbara as Batgirl represented a true people’s hero: someone who’s known tragedy and given her life to ensure that no-one should ever suffer that way again. Her sense of empathy is what drives her and her iron-will shines brightest as Batgirl because, with half the tech but twice the brain, she really showcases how important it is to -never- give up.
    I don't agree with that, either. Then again, my favorite era of Barbara as Bagirl was the 1970s, when those factors didn't apply and before the character was given a new personality for New 52. Mind you, she'd gone through some personality changes by then (that's just the era I like), but New 52 and most of post-COIE Barbara Gordon are just completely different characters.

    I'm not a fan of legacies. I really dislike Steph giving up her own identity to take orders from Barbara and her being accepted by the Batfam (many of whom previously treated her like crap) being treated as her graduation to the big leagues is hardly a sentiment I support. But she and Cass do not fail to live up to some "Batgirl standard" to me. And Barbara going back to it isn't a triumph to me. I'd much rather not give up the name she made her own to take on a sub-title of Bruce's again, especially one with "girl" in the title, which doesn't work for me for grown women (didn't even like an 18 year old Steph choosing it or Gar going back to a title with "Boy" in it). And I think not wearing someone else's emblem on her chest is better for making her be perceived as independent.

    I want Barbara working in the streets and kicking butt, because she wants it, and because here is nothing she can do paralyzed that she can't do without being paralyzed and because I hate story that put her in that wheelchair (though others made a silk purse out of a sow's ear), and because of the double standard of when the male Bats got injured that way, they got healed. But I don't want her called Batgirl again. Frankly, I'd also prefer her not working in the vicinity of Gotham. I dislike her being retconned to a Batman protege, and much preferred her running the BoP to being Batman or the JL's tech person. Also, didn't like the reveal Bruce funded her.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 03-04-2021 at 10:10 AM.

  9. #2799

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't get that at all. I do hate sidekick (or even protege) Batgirl, but that was retconned onto Babs before Steph even became Batgirl, and in first era as Batgirl Steph overcame far more adversity than Barbara (who overcame none at all). Mind you, I dislike Steph as Batgirl, and much prefer her as Spoiler for independence and not bowing to Batman's wishes. I just don't see those as "Batgirl" things at all. And while I do like Barbara becoming unparalyzed she should be in her 30s and not go back to the title of Batgirl.

    I don't agree with that, either. Then again, my favorite era of Barbara as Bagirl was the 1970s, when those factors didn't apply and before the character was given a new personality for New 52. Mind you, she'd gone through some personality changes by then (that's just the era I like), but New 52 and most of post-COIE Barbara Gordon are just completely different characters.
    Completely disagree with everything you said.

  10. #2800
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Completely disagree with everything you said.
    It's the fun part of controversial opinions.

  11. #2801

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    It's the fun part of controversial opinions.
    Exactly, so back off your high horse and stop trying to prove yourself ‘right.’

  12. #2802

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    Also: if there’s gonna be three Batgirls? Then the league of Nightwings need reviving and Dick needs to be shoved off onto the sidelines. Sorry Dick, you’re just one of a quota of masks now: your approach and value mean NOTHING.

  13. #2803
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I feel like Barbara not knowing tragedy and becoming an effective crime fighter anyway made her distinct from Bruce and Dick. I feel like if we're adding tragedy in her motivation and role as Batgirl, something is being done wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Also: if there’s gonna be three Batgirls? Then the league of Nightwings need reviving and Dick needs to be shoved off onto the sidelines. Sorry Dick, you’re just one of a quota of masks now: your approach and value mean NOTHING.
    That pretty much happens to Dick already. The Robins step on each others toes as much as the Batgirls.

    That is inevitably going to happen. Back in Barbara's heyday as Batgirl she was one of three regular crime fighters in Gotham with Dick and Bruce. Now, she's one of like what, 15-20? Including two other Batgirls, so of course the old approach to her as Batgirl isn't going to stand out anymore. It's why Nightwing doesn't either, he frequently struggles with being Batman-lite but can't go back to being Robin. it's why a bloated Bat-cast is pretty bad, but they also have a lot of value to different fans.

  14. #2804

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I feel like Barbara not knowing tragedy and becoming an effective crime fighter anyway made her distinct from Bruce and Dick. I feel like if we're adding tragedy in her motivation and role as Batgirl, something is being done wrong.




    That pretty much happens to Dick already. The Robins step on each others toes as much as the Batgirls.

    That is inevitably going to happen. Back in Barbara's heyday as Batgirl she was one of three regular crime fighters in Gotham with Dick and Bruce. Now, she's one of like what, 15-20? Including two other Batgirls, so of course the old approach to her as Batgirl isn't going to stand out anymore. It's why Nightwing doesn't either, he frequently struggles with being Batman-lite but can't go back to being Robin. it's why a bloated Bat-cast is pretty bad, but they also have a lot of value to different fans.


    Except the Nightwings got killed off and the narrative went out of its’ way to justify why there can only be one and only forever and ever. It was equally celebrated by fans. Those SAME fans who devalue Batgirl in such a way. It’s the fact that DC is so keen to give in to such nonsense rather than making an actual effort to DIFFERENTIATE every character and their approach that’s BS.

    Her approach as Batgirl absolutely can stand out, because as you said: if Nightwing can get get away with it then Batgirl absolutely should be afforded that same luxury

  15. #2805
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Exactly, so back off your high horse and stop trying to prove yourself ‘right.’
    I don't think I have a high horse - I was sharing my opinion, just like you did yours.

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