Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

The more one thinks about it Robin is an awful concept. What type of hero endangers kids in his care? Batman should be safeguarding children. keeping them far from violent and dangerous situations not giving them costumes and exposing them to even more danger and violence.

batman should partner with meta's or older allies.

I say this as someone whose favourite characters are Robins.

Robin works more as a kid appeal character. So putting them in a cartoon like Ben 10 makes more sense than what these comics are going for.

I'm apprehensive of them popping up in Reeves's take. I rather avoid them and use Bronze Tiger, Onyx, Orpheus etc.

[phonogram12]

Don't know if/how many times we've already had this, but . . .

I don't like Dick and Barbara as a couple.
It almost feels like "bat-incest".

Very few writers can make this work for me. No matter how much Dixon tried, he could never convince me of it. Taylor is one of the few who can.

[TravelerInTheDark]

I have little to no interest in the idea of using the Robins as an in-universe criticism of Batman, comparing them to "child soldiers". The simple reason is their existence stems from fan demand. It is both unfair to the characters of Batman and the Robins, treating their existence as something to be ashamed of. It's overtly pessimistic and undermines a foundational strength of superhero comic books (being a source of positive escapism and enjoyment for children and adults alike).

[millernumber1]

I have little to no interest in the idea of using the Robins as an in-universe criticism of Batman, comparing them to "child soldiers". The simple reason is their existence stems from fan demand. It is both unfair to the characters of Batman and the Robins, treating their existence as something to be ashamed of. It's overtly pessimistic and undermines a foundational strength of superhero comic books (being a source of positive escapism and enjoyment for children and adults alike).

Well said.

[dietrich]

no interest in the idea of using the Robins as an in-universe criticism of Batman, comparing them to "child soldiers" is both unfair to the characters of Batman and the Robins

treating their existence as something to be ashamed of. It's overtly pessimistic and undermines a foundational strength of superhero comic books (being a source of positive escapism and enjoyment for children and adults alike).

DC creatives seem to have forgotten this.

After Jason's death the dynamic between Batman and his Robins hasn't been Positive.

[phantom1592]

I have little to no interest in the idea of using the Robins as an in-universe criticism of Batman, comparing them to "child soldiers". The simple reason is their existence stems from fan demand. It is both unfair to the characters of Batman and the Robins, treating their existence as something to be ashamed of. It's overtly pessimistic and undermines a foundational strength of superhero comic books (being a source of positive escapism and enjoyment for children and adults alike).

Agreed. Personally I'm sick of having the characters be ashamed of any of their tropes. The characters are doing their best and proud of all their choices. I hate when I see a Robin make excuses for his pixie shoes or disco costume or characters embarassed by the trunks they wore.

They loved their costumes. THey loved their history. They're proud of everything that was involved in their past. Nobody made them wear those costumes. They weren't drunk when they designed them... They thought they looked damn good and anyone who doesn't like it... well, screw them.

Way too much meta commentary as time goes on with the authors and the 'fans' inserting their own opinions in the mouths of the characters.

I also maintain that as a character Concept Robin just works. He didn't recruit 'child soldiers', He prevented future super-villains. Those kids were all trapped in cycles of bitterness and revenge or living on the streets doing crime already. He taught them the RIGHT way to get their revenge... and they've mostly all grown into solid heroes who've saved the world a dozen times over.

Nothing to be ashamed of there. MORE heroes should be training young heroes when you look at the Robin track record.

[Lal]

Agreed. Personally I'm sick of having the characters be ashamed of any of their tropes. The characters are doing their best and proud of all their choices. I hate when I see a Robin make excuses for his pixie shoes or disco costume or characters embarassed by the trunks they wore.

They loved their costumes. THey loved their history. They're proud of everything that was involved in their past. Nobody made them wear those costumes. They weren't drunk when they designed them... They thought they looked damn good and anyone who doesn't like it... well, screw them.

Way too much meta commentary as time goes on with the authors and the 'fans' inserting their own opinions in the mouths of the characters.

I also maintain that as a character Concept Robin just works. He didn't recruit 'child soldiers', He prevented future super-villains. Those kids were all trapped in cycles of bitterness and revenge or living on the streets doing crime already. He taught them the RIGHT way to get their revenge... and they've mostly all grown into solid heroes who've saved the world a dozen times over.

Nothing to be ashamed of there. MORE heroes should be training young heroes when you look at the Robin track record.

While it could mostly be said about Dick, Jason and Damian, that's not really helping Tim's case. He was perfectly fine before becoming Robin, and being Robin objectively ruined his life and got his father killed.

[phantom1592]

While it could mostly be said about Dick, Jason and Damian, that's not really helping Tim's case. He was perfectly fine before becoming Robin, and being Robin objectively ruined his life and got his father killed.

True, but his mother was killed and his father crippled none of which was involved with Batman or his being Robin. he was still training in the cave at the time. His trauma was just a little late in coming, but Batman was still there to help him deal with it 'right'.

[Lal]

True, but his mother was killed and his father crippled none of which was involved with Batman or his being Robin. he was still training in the cave at the time. His trauma was just a little late in coming, but Batman was still there to help him deal with it 'right'.

I'm not sure that's right. Tim had friends and family and social life that he loved. When he became Robin he gradually lost all of them, and by his RR run he was in a very, very bad place. Objectively, Tim's life would have been significantly better if he never met Bruce or became Robin, not like Dick who would become a Talon, Jason a criminal and Damian Ra's.

[Agent Z]

Ya know, I never really thought about it until all my Batman discussions in the last week, but I think the reason I have always loved Batman Beyond and even preferred it to BLTAS is that it's a "Bat Family" story by its very nature. Terry is our main protagonist who, yes, needs guidance from the older Batman in matters of superheroing, but he in turn gives Bruce guidance in how to live and finally find peace.
And that's also why Under the Red Hood is my favorite Batman film. Our two leads need each other, both to make the story better and to make each other better.

When discussing elsewhere why I don't like Dark Knight Rises, I noted it's because in Rises Batman just saves himself. In the DCAU, Batman would have died alone and miserable if not for Terry. Jason is also heading to an ugly and bitter end without Bruce. I guess I just prefer stories that aren't centered entirely on Bruce. Alone, he is nothing; a sad wreck of a human being. The only hope any of them have is with each other. The original comic Under the Red Hood I'm reading right now has Alfred himself make a point on this, abut how different and better Bruce is when he has a partner.

Bruce didn't save himself in Rises. He needed the help of one of the prisoners of the Pit and even after that needed to be saved from Bane by Catwoman.

[phantom1592]

I'm not sure that's right. Tim had friends and family and social life that he loved. When he became Robin he gradually lost all of them, and by his RR run he was in a very, very bad place. Objectively, Tim's life would have been significantly better if he never met Bruce or became Robin, not like Dick who would become a Talon, Jason a criminal and Damian Ra's.

Impossible to know, and honestly it would depend on the writer. However at his core, His parents were always off on globe trotting adventures leaving their son behind who was entirely too smart and clever for his age.

He had friends and a social life sure... but if Bruce was never involved with his life... than Batman wouldn't have been investigating Tim's parents kidnapping and been able to save at least ONE of his parents.

So yeah, Smart kid who's parents kind of neglected him until they were kidnapped and murdered in a foreign country.... Supervillain origins have had less than that. Not even counting that he's in Gotham. Two things we know about Gotham. 1) You'll probably earn some kind of doctorate... and 2) Odds are REALLY high of becoming a criminal :P

Tim was a pretty proactive kid, figuring out Bruces' identity and taking on himself to 'fix' Bruce and Dick's relationship... If he hadn't become Robin and his parents were killed and he got their fortune and time on his hands without his Robin activities focusing him... Things could have gotten ugly.


On a separate note... I'm never sure what happened to his supporting cast and all his high school friends and girlfriends. They just kind of disappeared when Spoiler showed up and they started focusing more on Robin and less on Tim... Did I hear they died during the Contagion Plague? If so that would be another strike against him without Batman to focus him... All that crap was still happening to him whetehr he was Robin or not.

[Agent Z]

Agreed. Personally I'm sick of having the characters be ashamed of any of their tropes. The characters are doing their best and proud of all their choices. I hate when I see a Robin make excuses for his pixie shoes or disco costume or characters embarassed by the trunks they wore.

They loved their costumes. THey loved their history. They're proud of everything that was involved in their past. Nobody made them wear those costumes. They weren't drunk when they designed them... They thought they looked damn good and anyone who doesn't like it... well, screw them.

Way too much meta commentary as time goes on with the authors and the 'fans' inserting their own opinions in the mouths of the characters.

I also maintain that as a character Concept Robin just works. He didn't recruit 'child soldiers', He prevented future super-villains. Those kids were all trapped in cycles of bitterness and revenge or living on the streets doing crime already. He taught them the RIGHT way to get their revenge... and they've mostly all grown into solid heroes who've saved the world a dozen times over.

Nothing to be ashamed of there. MORE heroes should be training young heroes when you look at the Robin track record.

Dick is questionable at best and with Jason, Bruce himself has stated that making him Robin wasn't necessarily a good way to deal with his anger. One need only look at the Red Hood situation.

It's questionable if being Batman did Bruce any good himself.

True, but his mother was killed and his father crippled none of which was involved with Batman or his being Robin. he was still training in the cave at the time. His trauma was just a little late in coming, but Batman was still there to help him deal with it 'right'.

Tim's father's death absolutely was due to him being Robin. The only reason he was killed was because Jean Loring knew he was Robin and wanted to strike out against the heroes' loved ones.

[phantom1592]

Tim's father's death absolutely was due to him being Robin. The only reason he was killed was because Jean Loring knew he was Robin and wanted to strike out against the heroes' loved ones.

For sure. But if not for being Robin his dad would have died years earlier. So depends on how you look at things. Either being Robin got him killed, or being Robin gave them a lot of extra time before death caught up with him again.

It's a classic 'What if/elseworlds' setup. If Tim was never Robin, Jack wouldn't have been killed in Identity Crisis in 2004... He would have been sacrificed in Haiti back in 1990.

[Restingvoice]

Being a superhero comes with a risk. A villain finding out your identity is one of them. But it also comes with perks. The skill to save innocents including your family. After that it's up to each person to reflect on what's best.
Like the times Spiderman's No More

[skyvolt2000]

On a separate note... I'm never sure what happened to his supporting cast and all his high school friends and girlfriends. They just kind of disappeared when Spoiler showed up and they started focusing more on Robin and less on Tim... Did I hear they died during the Contagion Plague? If so that would be another strike against him without Batman to focus him... All that crap was still happening to him whetehr he was Robin or not.

Pretty much New 52 and the desire for everyone to NOT have private lives took out a lot of supporting casts for many. Especially the Tim Drake generation.