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  1. #1501
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    as callus as it may sound, they need to cripple Barbara again.

    and it needs to be by Harley Quinn
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 07-16-2019 at 09:12 AM. Reason: added to it
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
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  2. #1502
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    as callus as it may sound, they need to cripple Barbara again.

    and it needs to be by Harley Quinn
    Why? (to both)

  3. #1503
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    Morrison Dick is OOC. As OOC as Jason or talia or Bruce compared to the classic versions.
    #accurate

    10 characters
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  4. #1504
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    Damien's only every been tolerable when written by Peter Tomasi. Morrison's is literally my least favorite version.

    Bruce should be middle aged. The fact that TPTB even pretend that he's still in his 30s is preposterous.

    Post-Crisis, Selina with long hair is an absolutely ridiculous idea.
    Last edited by phonogram12; 07-16-2019 at 04:06 PM.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  5. #1505
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    as callus as it may sound, they need to cripple Barbara again.

    and it needs to be by Harley Quinn
    It's not callus, she was a great disabled hero. Scrapping that was a bad move.

    Why Harley?
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

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  6. #1506
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    No sexual harassment, just a giant mallet?

  7. #1507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    That’s a good one. Can you explain?
    I can only try, because out of all he is the one that SEEMS right also he helped Damian, so he's often overlooked in terms of Morrison OOC-ness.

    He is OOC the way Jason is OOC, self-pity. Now we readers know Jason needs help seriously. And he might or might not be salvaged. But Jason doesnt know that. He wouldn't say things like "i cant be saved anymore.", He knows what he believes in. The Dick that came before Morrison isnt that self-conscious. He has better control and planning over the projection of himself. Think whatever you want about his real abilities vs acting, but Under Winick he said "Damian can't see me doubting myself" but Morrison's Dick is more unhinged, impulsive, lets Damian insult him, and says things like "i dont know shit about business,, im an acrobat!!!!" Dude you lived with Bruce Wayne and went to business school and taught Tim. Act proud and detective-y better.

    He is OOC the way Bruce is OOC, ie different view of the legend of Batman and Robin. Bruce took in Jason because he loves family and wanted a child that's beside him like Dick was. Morrison Bruce forced Jason to dye his hair to look like Dick . It's creepy and showed Bruce's obsession with the past, which classic Bruce got depression straight from. He created Batman Inc because he wanted Batman to continue as a family tradition. It should be the reverse. Bruce doesnt want Batman to continue, for Batman is only him, but Dick, the one who's past-oriented, says it needs to. Also "Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore" is nice but Dick never says that explicitly. He doesnt care about how special he is. He might not "like" it, but he was open to people fighting, continue the tradition. I know he said that in a flashback as a child, but again, too self-consicious and idealistic for Dick.

    He is OOC the way Talia is OOC, motivation. Robin didn't come as "colour" and "Light", he comes as a moral compass. The Dickbats that was with Tim # Damian's Dickbats. Damian should be a child for him to care for to complete his development, not insults and points out to him why he is Batman again. Tim's Dick, who was in every other book at that same time, thinks closer to Tim, actually doesnt understand or like Damian. He's also family oriented, he doesn't symphathise that much with either Tim or Damian as individuals, He's much harsher about what he wants them to be as his family. ("Get in the damn car Damian", "What more do you want Damian, you are wearing that suit.") Non-Morrison Damian couldn't get that close to him emotionally except in fighting experiences. Damian would get more emotional support for what he individually values from Bruce by Tomasi.

    Wow this got long and nitpicking, but i have to get that feeling out in words. I do think a lot of these is due to Morrison's liking of the IDEA of these characters. He discarded the post crisis timeline, so they feel very static instead of developing though a long timeline. Like it's true Bruce would continue Batman either way, but slowly realising it, is better than "Batman should be inc because my dad was Batman" in the first place. And Dick isn't JUST idealistic or the best for Batman, because he was, it's that he has gone though Jason and Tim and enough bullshit in his life; Morrison Dick never had Tim.

    Oh and also "Bruce IS dead Tim" in every other book and throwing not-even-Bruce into the Pit.

    Do i personally like a lighter, happy and more genuine Dick and that Dick taught Damian his ideals of himself rather than a Dick that's past-oriented and oppressive ? Yes. OOC is still OOC. And he's twisted so he could partner with a Bruce that i hate, so i stay away from him.
    Last edited by nhienphan2808; 07-17-2019 at 05:04 AM.

  8. #1508
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    It's not callus, she was a great disabled hero. Scrapping that was a bad move.

    Why Harley?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    Why? (to both)
    I feel her time as Oracle and having her come to terms with being disabled was a powerful and interesting move for the character that I think was more distinct than her being another bat-characters. I am a firm believer that the batfamily should start as extensions of him like Batgirl or Robin but should eventually move on to their own unique role. Her time as Oracle feels more independant and significant (to me) than her being Batgirl. The inciting incident was gratuitous and a little grotesque but I feel Oracle was a great idea that came from it in response.

    Why Harley? I'm just not a fan of Harley as a "hero" or anti-hero. It feels like the deadpool/venom effect, a cool looking villain character gets popular so they HAVE to be a hero now. I would like Harley to go back to being a villain and I think her betraying and crippling Barbara would be the best move to kick her off on that path.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 07-17-2019 at 01:45 PM.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Lantern.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
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  9. #1509
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I feel her time as Oracle and having her come to terms with being disabled was a powerful and interesting move for the character that I think was more distinct than her being another bat-characters. I am a firm believer that the batfamily should start as extensions of him like Batgirl or Robin but should eventually move on to their own unique role. Her time as Oracle feels more independant and significant (to me) than her being Batgirl. The inciting incident was gratuitous and a little grotesque but I feel Oracle was a great idea that came from it in response.

    Why Harley? I'm just not a fan of Harley as a "hero" or anti-hero. It feels like the deadpool/venom effect, a cool looking villain character gets popular so they HAVE to be a hero now. I would like Harley to go back to being a villain and I think her betraying and crippling Barbara would be the best move to kick her off on that path.
    I hate hero/anti-hero Harley as well but giving her Bab's crippling is dumb. Create new important universe events. Taking important events, costumes, relationships, etc and passing them off to another character is just lazy. Even having it happen with the Joker there and Harley was an accomplice, that would still be a lazy retcon/new version but it's better than just loaning it out like a $5 dollar bill. If things can just change or be given to another character so willy-nilly no one is unique or interesting anymore.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  10. #1510
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    I hate hero/anti-hero Harley as well but giving her Bab's crippling is dumb. Create new important universe events. Taking important events, costumes, relationships, etc and passing them off to another character is just lazy. Even having it happen with the Joker there and Harley was an accomplice, that would still be a lazy retcon/new version but it's better than just loaning it out like a $5 dollar bill. If things can just change or be given to another character so willy-nilly no one is unique or interesting anymore.
    I disagree, I think it's the most logic way to accomplish both things I need to do. Killing Joke still happened (apparently), so for Batgirl to be crippled again it wouldn't make sense to have the Joker do it. to respect the character's growth it would only be logical that Babs wouldn't let herself be caught lacking like that again. she would need to be caught off guard; enter Harley. they've been playing up Batgirl and Harley Quinn's friendship for a minute, so it would make sense that Harley would be someone who could catch her slipping. If we are going to have Harley Quinn stick as a villain (for a time at least) she can't just do something heinous (she already murdered a bunch of kids), it has to be brutal and definitive. to have her betray someone who believed in her, not just crippling but RE-crippling them, she's taking away that bodily agency Barbara fought so hard to regain after Killing Job, that's would be the kind of mark that don't easily rub off. She's throwing a middle finger to the Joker, to Batman, and taking a major player (in their current form at least) off the table.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Lantern.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Deathstroke, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Doomsday Clock
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  11. #1511
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Terrible. First you keep referring to it as if its Babs fault, her "being caught lacking" and "slipping". And whats more you want Harley to do it yet still make it about Batman and Joker. Making Babs her victim so she can "throw a middle finger" to them. So a big no thanks to that.

    If they were to put that genie back it the bottle, not that I think they should as her not being able to use her legs should not be a requirement for Oracle, then it should be from Babs doing something heroic and awesome. Like she gets hurt saving the universe or something. Not so someone else can get more villain cred, or somehow stick it to Batman and Joker.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 07-20-2019 at 08:34 PM.

  12. #1512
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    I agree that Barbara Gordon should step down from the Bat mantle and become Oracle again (Unless you want a wheelchair Batgirl.), but I think crippling her again would seen repetative and gratuitous. Just revert her to her Pre Flashpoint status quo via Doctor Manhattan.

  13. #1513
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    I don't think Babs should be re-crippled just to be Oracle again. Could be 100 reasons why she would prefer to be behind the monitor than out in the field without sticking her in a wheelchair again.

    And when she steps back from it, Cass could be given the mantle, or even Steph (that both were robbed of their time under the mantle and under Babs' tutelage is still awful).

  14. #1514
    Incredible Member Blue22's Avatar
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    I didn't realize this was an unpopular opinion until recently but....The original Robin costume should stay dead and buried.

    Also, I completely agree about making Babs Oracle again and giving Batgirl to Cass or Steph. Not so much Bout crippling her again though. And definitely not Harley doing it (I actually..like hero Harley)
    Last edited by Blue22; 07-22-2019 at 06:41 AM.

  15. #1515
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    I don't think Babs should be re-crippled just to be Oracle again. Could be 100 reasons why she would prefer to be behind the monitor than out in the field without sticking her in a wheelchair again.

    And when she steps back from it, Cass could be given the mantle, or even Steph (that both were robbed of their time under the mantle and under Babs' tutelage is still awful).
    I agree on that she should not be re-crippled. And I don't see why she shouldn't run a team and occasionally get into the field (something she really enjoyed). Or even do so often. While I didn't mind it, I felt her doing intel for the JL and stuff was kind of a manufactured role - everyone managed their own research and many worked fine without someone at headquarters directing them before they needed something for paralyzed Barbara to do. Plus, wheelchair-runs-the-show is kind of a trope. I mean, there was Calder and Professor X. And when you extend it to the person running the show being someone who just can't do the physical stuff, the list gets much, much longer.

    Her running her own team works much better for me than intel for others, though, because it seems less like an unnecessary role created to fit her needs. But I enjoyed her at Batgirl in the old days (as well as as Oracle), and see no reason she shouldn't stay in the field. Just not as a de-aged Batgirl, not taken to an earlier, less-mature point in her life. New code name, and not de-aged would be my preference, but I just don't think they're going to let her and Dick be the ages they should be, that we saw them grow to. Ages Batman too much.

    As for the second part - I want more people having their own codenames instead of re-using old ones (this especially applies to adult characters), and kinda thought Batgirl was a demotion for Steph (which I know no one agrees with, but I much preferred her as Spoiler, thematically speaking), and a bad message overall (yay - she gets validation from the people who treated her like crap). So if someone has to take it, then Cass, again with a mentor/student thing going on with Barbara.

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