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  1. #1651
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    In the 1960s and 1970s, when I read reprints of Batman stories from the 1940s and 1950s, I would get jazzed to find these stories from a period that I knew little about. I remember when I got the hardcover BATMAN FROM THE 30'S TO THE 70'S, I couldn't contain my excitement. Just the pages that showed thumbnails of old covers from the '40s and the '50s excited me so much. And I loved all those stories where the mythology of the Batman was being built up. Stories about the Batcave, the Batmobile, the Utility Belt. I still get a tingle thinking about these discoveries.

    I wonder if kids feel the same way now. When they find info about a Batman they never knew before, one that doesn't jibe with the present version, are they excited? Or is there just so much available without any effort to find it, that kids find all this dusty old stuff really boring and not interesting whatsoever. I mean, I've seen some people react to the old comics with complete contempt--like they were hurt by such comics even existing and not being the Batman they wanted. I wonder if that's now the common response.
    Last edited by Jim Kelly; 09-09-2019 at 06:14 PM.
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  2. #1652
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    In the 1960s and 1970s, when I read reprints of Batman stories from the 1940s and 1950s, I would get jazzed to find these stories from a period that I knew little about. I remembering when I got the hardcover BATMAN FROM THE 30'S TO THE 70'S, I couldn't contain my excitement. Just the pages that showed thumbnails of old covers from the '40s and the '50s excited me so much. And I loved all those stories where the mythology of the Batman was being built up. Stories about the Batcave, the Batmobile, the Utility Belt. I still get a tingle thinking about these discoveries.

    I wonder if kids feel the same way now. When they find info about a Batman they never knew before, one that doesn't jibe with the present version, are they excited? Or is there just so much available without any effort to find it, that kids find all this dusty old stuff really boring and not interesting whatsoever. I mean, I've seen some people react to the old comics with complete contempt--like they were hurt by such comics even existing and not being the Batman they wanted. I wonder if that's now the common response.
    Growing up in the 21st century, I was still the same way. I read my copy of the DC Encyclopedia until the binding broke, and then some. The only comics I owned and read were reprints from the '40s newspaper strips and the black and white phonebook DC Showcase presents from the '60s. Every single one of those stories is burned into my memory. Anything about equipment or the Batcave was revisted often.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  3. #1653
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    Not sure this is controversial but....

    I would take Kathy Kane Batwoman over Kate Kane Batwoman every single day.

    A Batfamily member that isnít all dark and grim, a lighter tone. Every Batfamily member seems to mimic his dark and gritty tone.

    Kathy Kane IS Batwoman. And Betty Kane IS Bat-Girl (note the spelling).

  4. #1654
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bretmaverick2 View Post
    Not sure this is controversial but....

    I would take Kathy Kane Batwoman over Kate Kane Batwoman every single day.

    A Batfamily member that isn’t all dark and grim, a lighter tone. Every Batfamily member seems to mimic his dark and gritty tone.
    Aren't you forgetting about Dick, or Barbara, or Steph? Why not go with them if you want a lighter character, rather than replacing one, especially such a good one?

    Other than being light, why do you think Kathy is in any way a compelling character?
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  5. #1655
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    Aren't you forgetting about Dick, or Barbara, or Steph? Why not go with them if you want a lighter character, rather than replacing one, especially such a good one?

    Other than being light, why do you think Kathy is in any way a compelling character?
    How would Kathy Kane be replacing Kate Kane? Isn't it the other way around? Kathy Kane was the first female member of the Batman family (if you don't count Catwoman), being introduced in DETECTIVE COMICS 233 (July 1956)--created by Edmond Hamilton and Sheldon Moldoff. Kate Kane has supplanted the original Batwoman.

    I wouldn't want to speak for bretmaverick2, but Kathy comes from a period when the Batman family was as light as could be. The only family members that can compete with her for that tone are Bat-Mite, Bathound and Bat-Girl (Betty Kane). Even Dick Grayson was introduced at a time when the comics were grittier. And while the 1960s "New Look" Batman wasn't as dark as the 1970s (when Man-Bat was introduced), the "New Look" comics were a little more adult than the comics just prior, so when Barbara Gordon made her million dollar debut, she was more serious-minded. Thus, if you're looking for a character that represents the lighter tone of Batman comics, then Kathy Kane is your woman.
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  6. #1656
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    Jim Kelly is exactly correct

    There could easily be two Batwomen. Why not? It’s not that I don’t like Kate. I just see room for Kathy as well.

  7. #1657
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    How would Kathy Kane be replacing Kate Kane? Isn't it the other way around? Kathy Kane was the first female member of the Batman family (if you don't count Catwoman), being introduced in DETECTIVE COMICS 233 (July 1956)--created by Edmond Hamilton and Sheldon Moldoff. Kate Kane has supplanted the original Batwoman.
    Kate is the current Batwoman and has been for 13 years. Kathy hasn't been Batwoman since, what, the mid-80s? There's no overlap between them, and bringing Kathy back as Batwoman now would indeed be replacing Kate (and for no good reason).

    Quote Originally Posted by bretmaverick2 View Post
    Jim Kelly is exactly correct

    There could easily be two Batwomen. Why not? It’s not that I don’t like Kate. I just see room for Kathy as well.
    When you say things like this:

    I would take Kathy Kane Batwoman over Kate Kane Batwoman every single day.
    Kathy Kane IS Batwoman.
    That doesn't exactly make it sound like you want both to exist.
    Last edited by Caivu; 09-15-2019 at 09:24 AM.
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
    Fan of: Batman, Cassandra Cain, Wonder Woman, Silk, Stephanie Brown, Captain America, Hellcat, Renee Montoya, Gotham Central, King Shark
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  8. #1658
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    I would take chocolate ice cream over vanilla. I would take a Hawaiian pizza over pepperoni. That's just stating a preference. Some people like fun stories, that doesn't mean they don't also like gritty stories--it's just saying that one kind of story happens to please them more than another.
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  9. #1659
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    How would Kathy Kane be replacing Kate Kane? Isn't it the other way around? Kathy Kane was the first female member of the Batman family (if you don't count Catwoman), being introduced in DETECTIVE COMICS 233 (July 1956)--created by Edmond Hamilton and Sheldon Moldoff. Kate Kane has supplanted the original Batwoman.
    Honestly Kathy was imo not a particularity good character, and to me it seems like she was only created as stand in for Catwoman, who could not be used due to the comics codes.

    And when it comes to the first female member appart from Catwoman, you cold also make a case for "Roberta the Girl Wonder".
    Last edited by Aahz; 09-15-2019 at 11:13 AM.

  10. #1660
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    Kathy hasn't been Batwoman since, what, the mid-80s?
    She stopped appearing in the Btamn comics in 1964, then had a few guest appearences in Batman Family in 1977 and 1978 and was killed in 1979 in Detective Comics #485.

  11. #1661
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    Kate is fine as Batwoman. Trying to shoehorn in a minor character not seen since the 1970s into the same role (40 years) is unnecessary. And now with Bruce related to the Kanes, Kathy Kane would be an aunt or something.

  12. #1662
    Spectacular Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Honestly Kathy was imo not a particularity good character, and to me it seems like she was only created as stand in for Catwoman, who could not be used due to the comics codes.

    And when it comes to the first female member appart from Catwoman, you cold also make a case for "Roberta the Girl Wonder".
    I don't think I had heard that Catwoman wasn't allowed to be used due to the comics code. I'll have to look into that.
    Kathy's creation actually has an even more ugly background than that. She was created to fight the image that Batman (and Robin) were gay. So considering her creation was inspired by reactionary homophobia, there's some justice in the character being re-imagined as a strong gay person.
    I am fond of Kathy all the same in those campy 50s and 60s comics, but that character as she wasn't written wouldn't work today.
    What would you do with Kathy now if she were brought back? There's already a Batwoman, and a Batgirl, and many many other Batfamily members. I can't see a place for her. And as the Kanes are now related to the Waynes, she couldn't be a love interest for Bruce either, which was initially the whole point of her character.
    If Kate were replaced by Kathy it would be a PR disaster, as you'd be erasing arguably DC's more prominent gay character, and arguably the most prominent lesbian in comics.

  13. #1663
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Bruce is only interesting as a older Bruce Wayne.

    Seeing him in Dark Knight Returns or Batman Beyond is far more interesting then his current characterization simply because as a reader I want to know how did things go so wrong.

    Fans may always him to be the brooding grimdark hero, but in Batman Beyond he is the exemplar of a man who has lost all semblance of emotional intelligence and would have been forever alone if not for Terry. Bruce from DKR is the same and he was looking for a "out" trying to constantly push himself.

    Bruce as a young man is only interesting because I have hope that he will escape the trauma and when he stubbornly stays the same he becomes boring.

    This is why New 52 Batman & Robin is so good, Bruce was basically happy and you can imagine him stopping all of the shenanigans and being a father to his son(s).

  14. #1664
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    Kathy's creation actually has an even more ugly background than that. She was created to fight the image that Batman (and Robin) were gay. So considering her creation was inspired by reactionary homophobia, there's some justice in the character being re-imagined as a strong gay person.

    ...If Kate were replaced by Kathy it would be a PR disaster, as you'd be erasing arguably DC's more prominent gay character, and arguably the most prominent lesbian in comics.
    Yes, Kathy was created for the wrong reasons. Then re-purposed as Kate for the right reasons.

    https://www.history.com/news/gay-batman-fears-batwoman

  15. #1665
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    Yes, Kathy was created for the wrong reasons. Then re-purposed as Kate for the right reasons.

    https://www.history.com/news/gay-batman-fears-batwoman
    I would like to see Kate and Bruce interact more, either with or without the costumes. Not saying a constant team-up, but making it happen a little more often than crises that require most of the city's vigilantes to begin with. They are cousins, each took their own path after tragic childhood traumas (a running theme for most Bats it seems), and both ended up as vigilantes.

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