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  1. #1786
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    Cassandra's problem is she is the typical 90s ' cool and quite Asian martial artist" trope. She was good for all she is, but she's a product of that era rather than a true long-lasting Batman hero.

    While im at this i have the same thoughts about Talia and Ras as well. They were created for their time in the 70s.

  2. #1787
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    I have never found Alfred compelling or interesting. Doesn't matter when his backstory changes, he gets his own TV series, he dies in main continuity - I still don't care.

  3. #1788
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    Cassandra's problem is she is the typical 90s ' cool and quite Asian martial artist" trope. She was good for all she is, but she's a product of that era rather than a true long-lasting Batman hero.

    While im at this i have the same thoughts about Talia and Ras as well. They were created for their time in the 70s.
    That's what she seems on the surface but she is a lot more complex than that. For one thing, her being quiet is a result of being selectively mute not simply trying to make her look cool.

  4. #1789
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Also, the mute martial artist was also done in the 80s by Snake Eyes, and he's still the most popular GIJoe today, and when that movie that not a lot of people like came out. So I think that's a pretty timeless trend.

    Anyway, anyone can have that character they just can't get into despite there's nothing wrong with them. Mine, for example, is Batwoman. Already talked about it in her thread, and I think it's just her personality, coz I like everything else. The costume, the setup, the supporting cast, some of the villains.

  5. #1790
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That's what she seems on the surface but she is a lot more complex than that. For one thing, her being quiet is a result of being selectively mute not simply trying to make her look cool.
    There's always childhood trauma with this trope, as they are brutally trained or abused, made them quite and introverted. That's nothing new.

    The point is, I don't think this is a bad trope or just for the 90s. Its blown up in the 90s due to Chinese and Japanese medias popularity. Its whether it fits in with the batlore and mythos and whether one cares for a "perfect fighter" . It's a problem of "this trope is cool so I'll use it for a batman character and make her better than him in skills". I am not into it.

    It's the same thing with ras and talia. They are good characters, but only as his rouge to me. Because they only works best in certain themes and eras. That's why making talia as Bruce's main love interest didn't work.
    Last edited by nhienphan2808; 12-08-2019 at 11:49 PM.

  6. #1791
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    There's always childhood trauma with this trope, as they are brutally trained or abused, made them quite and introverted. That's nothing new.

    The point is, I don't think this is a bad trope or just for the 90s. Its blown up in the 90s due to Chinese and Japanese medias popularity. Its whether it fits in with the batlore and mythos and whether one cares for a "perfect fighter" . It's a problem of "this trope is cool so I'll use it for a batman character and make her better than him in skills". I am not into it.
    What examples of this trope have childhood trauma? Cass is the only example I've seen of this. And how many of these examples actually treat it as abuse?

    Every Bat character is a long standing trope if you boil them down to what they seem on the surface. There isn't anything about Cass that is out of place in the Bat mythos (where ninjas and martial artists are very common) and frankly, given how often Batman is portrayed as being better than other people in some area or another, I don't see why Cass being a better fighter than him should be an issue.

  7. #1792
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    There's always childhood trauma with this trope, as they are brutally trained or abused, made them quite and introverted. That's nothing new.

    The point is, I don't think this is a bad trope or just for the 90s. Its blown up in the 90s due to Chinese and Japanese medias popularity. Its whether it fits in with the batlore and mythos and whether one cares for a "perfect fighter" . It's a problem of "this trope is cool so I'll use it for a batman character and make her better than him in skills". I am not into it.

    It's the same thing with ras and talia. They are good characters, but only as his rouge to me. Because they only works best in certain themes and eras. That's why making talia as Bruce's main love interest didn't work.
    Eh, I think it kind of fits her trope. Think of Flash Gordon's Mings. Or the classic evil scientist's daughter trope. They're Fu Manchu-esque characters, kind of timeless (even if sort of old fashioned with those backgrounds now), but they're not really layered unless some writer gives them something more to go for them, I think.
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  8. #1793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Eh, I think it kind of fits her trope. Think of Flash Gordon's Mings. Or the classic evil scientist's daughter trope. They're Fu Manchu-esque characters, kind of timeless (even if sort of old fashioned with those backgrounds now), but they're not really layered unless some writer gives them something more to go for them, I think.
    I meant i have no problem with the trope itself, but whether it fits in with the Batman mythos.
    This also relates to one more of my controversal opinion : i dont get into the bat books under Dennis Oneil in both the 70s and 90s and all the mythical magic demon and ninja tropes he tried to incorporate in the bat mythos. I get it was to help the "fear" narrative and the "shadow" part of Batman and they are nice for all they are, but to me that was never the ONE thing Batman is about. Make it the ONE thing damaged his character now in 2020.

    Characters like Ras, Talia and Cass would work better now in a different imprint.
    Last edited by nhienphan2808; 12-09-2019 at 09:37 PM.

  9. #1794
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I kind of wish writers would have the characters like Nightwing or the other robins not be like Bruce when it comes to relationships. I do get it but most of their love interested are heroes to so I do wish the writers do try to stop and have them have committed issues. It becomes a too over use trope

  10. #1795
    Incredible Member Ulysses's Avatar
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    My controversial Batfamily opinion is that the Batfamily is more bad than good. To me the Batfamily is Alfred.
    “To the future or to the past. To a time when thought is free, when men are different from one another and do not live alone - to a time when truth exists and what is done cannot be undone: from the age of uniformity, from the age of solitude, from the age of Big Brother, from the age of doublethink - greetings!" - Winston Smith

  11. #1796
    Mighty Member Katana500's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    .
    Anyway, anyone can have that character they just can't get into despite there's nothing wrong with them. Mine, for example, is Batwoman. Already talked about it in her thread, and I think it's just her personality, coz I like everything else. The costume, the setup, the supporting cast, some of the villains.
    For me its Tim Drake. I'm not quite sure why. I just cannot for the life of me find his character interesting like the rest of the Batfamily.

    If he slipped on a banana skin and broke his neck in an issue tomorrow I doubt Id even care. But the rest of the family I defo would.

    I have no idea what puts me off him. I like characters like Luke, Duke and Barbara who are relatively similiar personality/role wise. so idk.

  12. #1797
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses View Post
    My controversial Batfamily opinion is that the Batfamily is more bad than good. To me the Batfamily is Alfred.
    I'd love elaboration on this. On why. Sounds very interesting.

  13. #1798

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katana500 View Post
    For me its Tim Drake. I'm not quite sure why. I just cannot for the life of me find his character interesting like the rest of the Batfamily.

    If he slipped on a banana skin and broke his neck in an issue tomorrow I doubt Id even care. But the rest of the family I defo would.

    I have no idea what puts me off him. I like characters like Luke, Duke and Barbara who are relatively similiar personality/role wise. so idk.
    Aw, poor Tim.

    I don't care a fig about most of the extended Batfamily, but I do like Tim, and the Robins generally. I think his problem is that he's such a middle son; Dick, Jason, and Damian stand out more boldly. The writers don't help when they're dismissive of him.

    My opinion is that Tim would be ideal as a non-costumed tech guru. So, you know, maybe let's have him slip on that banana peel and break his back, not his neck? Or just retire from hands-on crimefighting. (Dixon had Tim admit to Dick that he had no intention of continuing indefinitely. [Dixon's "Nightwing, Vol 2," I *think*.) I'd have preferred Tim over Lucius, by a long way, in a modified Alfred role. I am not interested in Lucius or Luke, but I do have some emotional stakes in Tim.

  14. #1799
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    That the Batam need to be less characters. It's just they keep growing the characters but sometimes the main cast suffers more.

  15. #1800
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    I'm beginning to fall out of love with the concept of the batfamily myself. It's become increasingly obvious that they aren't a team of equally respected heroes like the JL or Titans, but instead just Batman's cabal of disposable sidekicks, that can be fed to whatever villain of the month for easy drama.

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