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  1. #2761
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    Yeah, I’d have to say that I’m with those who fundamentally disagree that Batman getting married would keep him from being Batman, whether from being “too happy” or being worried about abandoning her to a widowed life. Alfred and the “kids” didn’t keep him from going out and doing his thing.

    Now, that’s not to say that Batman would by any means be guaranteed to remain married; honestly, everything about Bruce’s attitude, personality, flaws, and even his demographic features basically makes him a prime candidate for being a divorced superhero... and with Catwoman, possibly being an on-and-off-again spouse.

    Honestly, King’s whole Bane idea probably would have worked better by having the wedding go off on its initial date, then having Bane exacerbate the underlying issues that would naturally develop over time to have Bruce’s heart get broken.
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  2. #2762
    Incredible Member prepmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Now, that’s not to say that Batman would by any means be guaranteed to remain married; honestly, everything about Bruce’s attitude, personality, flaws, and even his demographic features basically makes him a prime candidate for being a divorced superhero... and with Catwoman, possibly being an on-and-off-again spouse.
    Bruce cant marry Selina. It would expose his secret identity since other Gotham rogues know Catwoman is Selina and Catwoman bangs Batman. Plot holes that writer ignored.
    the “kids” didn’t keep him from going out and doing his thing.
    Because he was doing his thing, the kids became involved into his thing. The kids didnt have to be adopted by a crime fighter like him. One of the kids ended up brutally murdered by his arch nemesis and came back as a changed person. Yet he still wants a young sidekick (some of whom he regarded as his son) at his side to be targeted by his enemies. Robin is the reason why people say Batman is a bad father. The guy who became a crime fighter due to the trauma from having witnessed the murder of his parents by a thug is the same guy who would allow his son at a young age to be targeted by other criminals. The guy who suffers from the trauma of losing loved ones was risking the life of his own son at a young age.

    I dont know how people bring up Robin and still make it look like Bruce was being both a good father and a good crime fighter at the same time. Robin was not a realistic concept. Past stories were not grounded and people didnt put much thought into how Bruce should act as a character.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 02-24-2021 at 08:13 PM.

  3. #2763
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I have to agree with what Agent Z said. Their entire organization is coded as terrorists in a way that white villains aren't.
    I don't see that. Ra's has a powerful organization in the League of Shadows... but it's not that different other than scale from other threats Batman has to deal with.

  4. #2764
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Because it requires a lot of careful writing and excising of stuff, after which they might not even resemble themselves anymore anyway.

    I don't think that's a bad thing. A lot of long-running characters are significantly different from their original depictions.

  5. #2765
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Because he was doing his thing, the kids became involved into his thing. The kids didnt have to be adopted by a crime fighter like him. One of the kids ended up brutally murdered by his arch nemesis and came back as a changed person. Yet he still wants a young sidekick (some of whom he regarded as his son) at his side to be targeted by his enemies. Robin is the reason why people say Batman is a bad father. The guy who became a crime fighter due to the trauma from having witnessed the murder of his parents by a thug is the same guy who would allow his son at a young age to be targeted by other criminals. The guy who suffers from the trauma of losing loved ones was risking the life of his own son at a young age.

    I dont know how people bring up Robin and still make it look like Bruce was being both a good father and a good crime fighter at the same time. Robin was not a realistic concept. Past stories were not grounded and people didnt put much thought into how Bruce should act as a character.
    He didn’t want another Robin after Jason, but was then hunted down and guilted into it under the shitty logic that he’s a bad person without a Robin. Dude can’t win either way. And I think your misunderstanding something. Becoming a crime fighter is how he came to cope with his trauma, and so by extension fighting crime is how he helped others cope with theirs. Agree with it or not, its what he knows. And what’s more it worked the first time with Dick. Which lead to a false sense that it would work again. Now of course it’s not realistic, but they are not in the business of realistic.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-25-2021 at 05:15 AM.

  6. #2766
    Incredible Member prepmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    He didn’t want another Robin after Jason, but was then hunted down and guilted into it under the shitty logic that he’s a bad person without a Robin. Dude can’t win either way. And I think your misunderstanding something. Becoming a crime fighter is how he came to cope with his trauma, and so by extension fighting crime is how he helped others cope with theirs. Agree with it or not, its what he knows. And what’s more it worked the first time with Dick. Which lead to a false sense that it would work again. Now of course it’s not realistic, but they are not in the business of realistic.
    But i dont think Batman has ever been a crime fighter at child / teenage age. He trained himself to reach peak human's physical & mental conditions so that he could fight crime at his best capability. But when it comes to Robin, it looks like they were his gullible disposable underlings so Jason wasnt wrong even when he was depicted as a villain against Batman.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 02-25-2021 at 06:21 AM.

  7. #2767
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I don't think that's a bad thing. A lot of long-running characters are significantly different from their original depictions.
    I think it's a case by case basis whether or not it's worth it for certain characters. Some can be naturally re-invented in a way that remains true to the spirit of the character. I imagine others can be so different that it might make sense to just create new characters and retire the old ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Because he was doing his thing, the kids became involved into his thing. The kids didnt have to be adopted by a crime fighter like him. One of the kids ended up brutally murdered by his arch nemesis and came back as a changed person. Yet he still wants a young sidekick (some of whom he regarded as his son) at his side to be targeted by his enemies. Robin is the reason why people say Batman is a bad father. The guy who became a crime fighter due to the trauma from having witnessed the murder of his parents by a thug is the same guy who would allow his son at a young age to be targeted by other criminals. The guy who suffers from the trauma of losing loved ones was risking the life of his own son at a young age.

    I dont know how people bring up Robin and still make it look like Bruce was being both a good father and a good crime fighter at the same time. Robin was not a realistic concept. Past stories were not grounded and people didnt put much thought into how Bruce should act as a character.
    Batman isn't a realistic concept either. He'd be dead within a week.

    It's not really fair to apply the baggage of current stuff to older comics. In the context of the older universe, Robin was a good idea that worked out as a good influence for Dick and Bruce was a good father/mentor., no ifs ands or buts. They DID put thought into how he should act as a character, it was just different because Frank Miller hadn't ruined him yet

    I also think the Robin concept should have been retired altogether once Dick became Nightwing if they were going to transition Batman and his world to being darker. From a narrative perspective, they've tried to have it both ways and it's never really worked IMO. Especially when you add Jason dying. It makes him look incredibly ineffectual.

  8. #2768
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Batman isn't a realistic concept either. He'd be dead within a week.

    It's not really fair to apply the baggage of current stuff to older comics. In the context of the older universe, Robin was a good idea that worked out as a good influence for Dick and Bruce was a good father/mentor., no ifs ands or buts. They DID put thought into how he should act as a character, it was just different because Frank Miller hadn't ruined him yet
    I absolutely agree. Including on Bruce dying quickly in the real world.

    Is Robin realistic - no. His explicit role is a kid who beats up adult criminals. But Batman isn't realistic, either. I'm willing to suspend disbelief on both of these because they're part of the genre I enjoy.

    I also think the Robin concept should have been retired altogether once Dick became Nightwing if they were going to transition Batman and his world to being darker. From a narrative perspective, they've tried to have it both ways and it's never really worked IMO. Especially when you add Jason dying. It makes him look incredibly ineffectual.
    Yes, and besides making Jason look bad, it makes Bruce look like someone who should be prosecuted for endangering children. Having it both ways doesn't really work. I know they tried to make excuses. First they gave Jason a darker past to say he had street smarts and it was more okay put him the role than an "innocent" kid. The they cast all the blame for Jason's death on Jason and said Tim would be fine because he'd follow orders. And, of course, with Damian, they really upped the history with darkness and training so this kid is okay. I didn't actually read Duke's transition into the family from We Are Robin, so don't know what they used there. Plus, older teens that the audience doesn't necessarily view as children may not need the same justifications. We've seen lots of excuses for why it's okay for Bruce to put these particular kids in the roles (and they'd all be dead otherwise or whatnot) when operating in a more "realistic" world, but frankly, I've never bought that any of them would be the best/appropriate way to deal with the issues they were facing.

  9. #2769
    Incredible Member prepmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Batman isn't a realistic concept either. He'd be dead within a week.
    Superheroes are meant to be superhumans. Usually they have powers as an in universe explaination for why they dont die easily. Batman just doesnt need powers. The bar of Batman's physical abilities is supposed to be that of Olympic level athletes but comics dont potray heroes with such limitations. Not mentioning random tech that he uses.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 02-25-2021 at 09:10 AM.

  10. #2770
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Superheroes are meant to be superhumans. Usually they have powers as an in universe explaination for why they dont die easily. Batman just doesnt need powers. The bar of Batman's physical abilities is supposed to be that of Olympic level athletes but comics dont potray heroes with such limitations. Not mentioning random tech that he uses.
    That doesn't explain why Robin not being a realistic concept doesn't fit with Batman. If anything it just means they fit better together. Now Batman isn't meant to be grounded or realistic?
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 02-25-2021 at 09:20 AM.

  11. #2771
    Incredible Member prepmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    That doesn't explain why Robin not being a realistic concept doesn't fit with Batman. If anything it just means they fit better together. Now Batman isn't meant to be grounded or realistic?
    Batman didnt fight crime in his child/teenage years. Having Robin makes you question whether Batman is good father or just uses the kids as his underlings

  12. #2772
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prepmaster View Post
    Batman didnt fight crime in his child/teenage years. Having Robin makes you question whether Batman is good father or just uses the kids as his underlings
    Actually in some pre-COIE stories, Bruce was Robin as a kid before Dick.

    It doesn't have to be either/or depending on the context and era. We don't have to question whether or not Bruce was a good mentor in the older comics because he just was and it was presented as a good thing. Dick turned out fine. It's a little more muddy in the angst ridden and violent later eras, but we don't have to apply that to the whole history of the character and all versions of him. Robin and Batman are both unrealistic concepts and live in very fantastical setting that doesn't resemble ours.

    If we're questioning if Batman is a terrible/irresponsible father figure (and there is now a lot of canon to back that up), the character was broken somewhere along the line.

  13. #2773
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Poison Ivy is a terrible character to make be the stand-in/spokesperson for environmentalism amongst DC characters.
    Last edited by Gaius; 02-25-2021 at 02:58 PM.

  14. #2774
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Poison Ivy is a terrible character to make be the stand-in/spokesperson for environmentalism in superhero media.
    Yesss...is that controversial? I hadn't really thought about it until I read this, and I realized I'm really not sure.

  15. #2775
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Poison Ivy is a terrible character to make be the stand-in/spokesperson for environmentalism amongst DC characters.
    Isn't that Swamp-Thing now?

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