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  1. #1546
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    The Injustice 2 comic did anyway not a good job with Jason. His first a appearance as Fake Batman was pretty cool, but they didn't really do anything with him later. (And the thing with Damians sister was also kind of a let down.)

    If you consider how popular Jason was among the injustice fans, it is wired that they never did an issue that focused on him.

  2. #1547
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Duke Thomas could wash Tim Drake in straight-up hand-to-hand combat.
    Probably. But why would he? Duke is a master of break them by talking. He's how Gotham Girl will be defeated: he'll do the same thing to her that both he and Goliath have done to Damian and that's how they'll end up married for a year. Then she'll die, because it's a firm rule dating back to Maggie and Kate that no member of the Batfamily is allowed to be happily married.

    I think it actually dates back to Sarah Essen, hence her death in No Man's Land.

  3. #1548
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    That's not unpopular or even debated. That's just what is
    really? huh, it felt like something I'd get push back on.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 08-16-2019 at 01:14 AM.
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  4. #1549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    Honestly? I do too as it highlights the hypocrisy of Bruce and the other "heroes," especially since Dick's death is a direct result of Harley Quinn's actions as are all the deaths in the entire series except for Jim Gordon's. Sure, Damian should not have thrown the escrima stick. However, he had done it hundreds of times before without any harm to Dick, he was 13, angry, and needed some level of stability in his life for a moment particularly after having just been carried off by Solomon Grundry.

    It's a scene that highlights how children are treated after accidentally causing the deaths of a family member by other family members: they themselves become orphans and outcasts even in cases where they have good, upstanding, ethical and moral parents, who love them unconditionally. You know, people who are the opposite of most versions of Bruce Wayne.

    Dick's death is at the core of the theme of Injustice as it was an accident caused by a child who is held responsible for it and all other actions of the adults around him, yet Harley Quinn who is an adult, has shades of pedophilia in her character, and is shown unequivocally to be fully cognizant and aware of the consequences of her actions as well as a willing participant not a coerced victim walks free of all guilt and consequences.

    At the core of the series, Superman was right. Everything that happened was Bruce's fault. Had Harley been brought in to face a court of law not in Gotham she would have been tried, convicted, and received lethal injection. The world would have have healed.

    It's was due to Batman's refusal to allow criminals real punishment and consequences starting with Selina and the other rogues, that leads to all the deaths in that universe.
    Could you explain the bolded, please?

  5. #1550
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Could you explain the bolded, please?
    Oh, she's attracted to Shazam! and kinda sorta kidnapped Billy from school by pretending to be his aunt or something like that. She's not attracted to Billy the kid, but to his superhero persona. She asked him to say the magic word and turn into an adult so they can have a date.

  6. #1551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    That's part of the ongoing racism rampant in both the DC editorial and fandom, particularly at WB which is the source for everything that particular idiot working for CBR wrote. People who have actually read comics, of which there are very few, know that Talia for the majority of her history was someone who acted out of live and loyalty. She was actively depicted as someone who did not want to kill, or even commit crimes up until the post 9/11 world.
    Talia's capacity for violence and her pragmatisim when it comes to life and death have always been inherent in the character. Talia kills someone in her very first appearance in Detective Comics 411. Batman leaves her because of her willingness to kill as far back as Batman 235. Was the inclusion of the rape a stupid move by Morrison? Yes. Is Talia's character built upon a combination of Bond Girl/ Princess Aura tropes and hackneyed Orientalist cliche. Sure, it was the seventies. But is this new? Not really.

  7. #1552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    Talia's capacity for violence and her pragmatisim when it comes to life and death have always been inherent in the character. Talia kills someone in her very first appearance in Detective Comics 411. Batman leaves her because of her willingness to kill as far back as Batman 235. Was the inclusion of the rape a stupid move by Morrison? Yes. Is Talia's character built upon a combination of Bond Girl/ Princess Aura tropes and hackneyed Orientalist cliche. Sure, it was the seventies. But is this new? Not really.
    A lot more of Aura before, a lot more of a Bond girl now. Talia wasn't as villanious and crude until recent times, as far as I know.
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  8. #1553
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    Talia's capacity for violence and her pragmatisim when it comes to life and death have always been inherent in the character. Talia kills someone in her very first appearance in Detective Comics 411. Batman leaves her because of her willingness to kill as far back as Batman 235. Was the inclusion of the rape a stupid move by Morrison? Yes. Is Talia's character built upon a combination of Bond Girl/ Princess Aura tropes and hackneyed Orientalist cliche. Sure, it was the seventies. But is this new? Not really.
    I agree with you. In her early appearances, Talia was morally gray, at best. She was perfectly fine with Batman being kidnapped and married to her against his will. She was seemingly onboard with the kidnapping of Robin (and the life-threatening "tests" for Bruce involved in rescuing him), she amnesiac-drugged someone, and she participated in framing Batman for murder. Yes, she also saved Batman's life, and saved a boy royal (can't recall exact royal title), so she certainly wasn't all bad. But she was definitely not all that good, either. Ultimately, she sided with Batman for one issue when he father got taken down. Then, aside from one anniversary issue, she disappeared from comics (so far as I can tell), for a decade, as did Ra's (and Bride of a Demon was originally out of continuity, as I understand it). When she shows up again in post-COIE land in the mid-90s, she's working for her father again. She certainly expressed a willingness to kill then (Huntress, at least, since she pointed a gun at Helena and told Dick or surrender or she's shoot). I've read that issue. I didn't see her actually kill, I admit, or read the other titles crossed over, so cannot say whether that was a ruse. This is circa Detective Comics 700/Robin #33. Her father also planned to kill 90% of the world's population in Legacy, and was was at least seemingly still loyal to him then, but I don't know if she actually was or was faking, or if she knew the plan, since I haven't read that story. I know the the Hush-era she was on Superman's side, but I have only seen a few crossover appearances there. But I have read all the bronze age appearances of Talia, and she was definitely not created as a primarily admirable or noble character, nor did she have an aversion to killing as a general principle at that time. She was not suddenly "made bad" post 9/11 because of her race.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-16-2019 at 09:12 AM.

  9. #1554
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    Talia should not be called "Talia al Ghul." It always bugs me when I see that. Ra's al Ghul is the name that the unknown man was given--as the Demonhead. Al Ghul isn't the family name. Back in the 1970s, Talia was always just Talia, no other name. And that's the way I like it. Talia doesn't need any other name than Talia, but if she has a family then it shouldn't have to be al Ghul. Makes more sense that, given the mystery around the man called Ra's al Ghul, his baby daughter would be registered under a different name, such as Talia Khan.
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  10. #1555
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I agree with you. In her early appearances, Talia was morally gray, at best. She was perfectly fine with Batman being kidnapped and married to her against his will. She was seemingly onboard with the kidnapping of Robin (and the life-threatening "tests" for Bruce involved in rescuing him), she amnesiac-drugged someone, and she participated in framing Batman for murder. Yes, she also saved Batman's life, and saved a boy royal (can't recall exact royal title), so she certainly wasn't all bad. But she was definitely not all that good, either. Ultimately, she sided with Batman for one issue when he father got taken down. Then, aside from one anniversary issue, she disappeared from comics (so far as I can tell), for a decade, as did Ra's (and Bride of a Demon was originally out of continuity, as I understand it). When she shows up again in post-COIE land in the mid-90s, she's working for her father again. She certainly expressed a willingness to kill then (Huntress, at least). I've read that issue. I didn't see her actually kill, I admit, or read the other titles crossed over, so cannot say whether that was a ruse. This is circa Detective Comics 700/Robin #33. Her father also planned to kill 90% of the world's population in Legacy, and was was at least seemingly still loyal to him then, but I don't know if she actually was or was faking, or if she knew the plan, since I haven't read that story. I know the the Hush-era she was on Superman's side, but I have only seen a few crossover appearances there. But I have read all the bronze age appearances of Talia, and she was definitely not created as a primarily admirable or noble character, nor did she have an aversion to killing as a general principle at that time. She was not suddenly "made bad" post 9/11 because of her race.
    For the record, she appeared in Tec for an issue in pre-COIE. I know this because it was part of the issues I've got to read in the Jason re-reading club thread. It was in Detective Comics #526, a special issue that put an end to the story arc that presented both Jason Todd and Killer Croc. I remember this because I thought it was funny that Blond Jason met (and rescued) Talia (before anything post-COIE Black haired Jason did) in his very first actual story.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 08-16-2019 at 09:21 AM.
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  11. #1556
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    No way is Selina less redeemable than Talia, or incapable of stopping her thieving ways if the narrative allowed her to. Status Quo is God being in place is the main reason she won't, but the unspoken truth is she would retire from crime just like Bruce would retire from crime fighting if the narrative was allowed to go there. it won't because comics need to be sold. But we have Earth-2 Selina classically retiring and marrying Bruce to have a daughter. Pre-crisis she served her prison sentence and even tried to stay reformed and began dating Bruce, and I believe that was hijacked and she returned to villainy because O'Neil wanted Talia to be the main love interest. even as an anti-hero, at this point we've had Batman and some of his allies (Jason, Damian and Huntress to varying degrees across various writers) do just as morally/legally questionable things.

    Talia was always morally shady. It's been ramped up over the years, but that's how she started out. The circumstances she grew up in and being raised and manipulated by a whack job like Ra's produced the end result, and that makes her a tragic figure who didn't have to turn out that way. But all that justification ultimately ends up as bullshit when she's doing things like killing innocent people as Leviathan. Selina victimizes the rich and/or corrupt and is self serving a lot of the time, but won't victimize the majority of the populace and certainly not in the same way Talia has.

    The fact that the non-white woman is chosen for this arc is a wider issue, but the creation of the Al Ghuls to begin with has unfortunate implications.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Which is exactly why I've never been against Jason and Damian's ways of doing things (even if Damian's way in Teen Titans was VERY flawed). For someone who knows just how corrupt Gotham (and the US government as a whole) is, Bruce sure does love leaving the dangerous criminals on their doorsteps. Knowing full well, they'll be out in about a week. Is this really the crusade against crime that he wanted so badly? Stopping criminals and murderers only to send them to the same Asylum that they routinely escape from? Hell, as much as I support BatCat, even that's all kinds of fucked up considering given Bruce's supposed stance on crime. For fuck's sake, she even stole her wedding dress. Bruce is a hypocrite. And he's just as responsible for all the crime related deaths in Gotham City as the madmen that he has put in time out for five minutes.
    If Batman went the extra step, Gordon and the cops would be all over him like flies on dog crap. It would be incredibly OOC of Jim not to take that action, the alliance with Batman is inherently shaky as it is and his not killing the criminals is the main reason the partnership is allowed to work. What else is Batman supposed to do with the criminals besides turn them over to the police. He and his allies within the system like Gordon have tried to fight the system, Bruce has even donated money to hire and equip better cops and make Arkham more progressive and secure. There is only so much he can do.

    No way is he responsible for the crime related deaths. He and his allies are responsible for cutting those statistics down, and I refuse to not give the villains agency for their own damn actions that lead to those deaths. If Bruce is responsible, he is far from being responsible alone. But again, Status Quo is God is the true reason.

  12. #1557
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    Talia's capacity for violence and her pragmatisim when it comes to life and death have always been inherent in the character. Talia kills someone in her very first appearance in Detective Comics 411. Batman leaves her because of her willingness to kill as far back as Batman 235. Was the inclusion of the rape a stupid move by Morrison? Yes. Is Talia's character built upon a combination of Bond Girl/ Princess Aura tropes and hackneyed Orientalist cliche. Sure, it was the seventies. But is this new? Not really.
    Also, since Damian's introduction she always been portrayed as an abusive mom toward her son, Damian call her on that in Morrison's run pre-52. Just read the last TT croosover, to see her latest flashback, their relationship is pretty much a gender inverted David/Cassandra at this point. Except for maybe when Tomasi is writing her (i think).
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  13. #1558
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Also, since Damian's introduction she always been portrayed as an abusive mom toward her son, Damian call her on that in Morrison's run pre-52. Just read the last TT croosover, to see her latest flashback, their relationship is pretty much a gender inverted David/Cassandra at this point. Except for maybe when Tomasi is writing her (i think).
    Yeah, she's not a model mother, but then neither is Bruce a model father. And the scenario she and Damian are implanted into it would be hard to imagine her acting any other way. After all, the reason she gave him up in the Son of the Demon timeline was to protect him from that life. You get the feeling Ra's would have Damian killed if he was brought up to be weak like his father and Talia has been raised to value strength and ruthlessness.

    I'm not a particular fan of Batman Inc style crazyevil ex-wife Talia, and as SiegePerilous says, there are wider questions you can ask about the Al Ghuls period, but I do think it is in keeping with whom she has always been characterised.

  14. #1559
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    Yeah, she's not a model mother, but then neither is Bruce a model father. And the scenario she and Damian are implanted into it would be hard to imagine her acting any other way. After all, the reason she gave him up in the Son of the Demon timeline was to protect him from that life. You get the feeling Ra's would have Damian killed if he was brought up to be weak like his father and Talia has been raised to value strength and ruthlessness.

    I'm not a particular fan of Batman Inc style crazyevil ex-wife Talia, and as SiegePerilous says, there are wider questions you can ask about the Al Ghuls period, but I do think it is in keeping with whom she has always been characterised.
    Yeah, neither one of them are going to win a parent of the year award. But to the casual observer, Bruce is the better parent. Talia and the life she was part of and Damian was born into already did the heavy lifting in screwing that kid up, so there is nowhere to go but up. Even if Bruce isn't perfect (but well meaning), he still comes with Dick and Alfred. It's perhaps sad, but not surprising, that being raised by Ra's and having him as her only example (barring one brief encounter with her mother, whose best advise was "appear helpless so everyone underestimates you"), that she turned into a lousy parent herself.

    I actually prefer the Batman Inc depiction over what generally came before. If we have to have her around, I'd prefer that to the tedious "Beloved" stuff. But the Al Ghuls in general hold my interest less than the Gotham villains, so I'm not super invested enough in Talia to be bothered by her turn. It seems in keeping enough with prior characterization to not feel too unnatural. And besides, I know Death and the Maidens by reputation only, but didn't Nyssa have something to do with driving her crazy?

  15. #1560
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah, neither one of them are going to win a parent of the year award. But to the casual observer, Bruce is the better parent. Talia and the life she was part of and Damian was born into already did the heavy lifting in screwing that kid up, so there is nowhere to go but up. Even if Bruce isn't perfect (but well meaning), he still comes with Dick and Alfred. It's perhaps sad, but not surprising, that being raised by Ra's and having him as her only example (barring one brief encounter with her mother, whose best advise was "appear helpless so everyone underestimates you"), that she turned into a lousy parent herself.

    I actually prefer the Batman Inc depiction over what generally came before. If we have to have her around, I'd prefer that to the tedious "Beloved" stuff. But the Al Ghuls in general hold my interest less than the Gotham villains, so I'm not super invested enough in Talia to be bothered by her turn. It seems in keeping enough with prior characterization to not feel too unnatural. And besides, I know Death and the Maidens by reputation only, but didn't Nyssa have something to do with driving her crazy?
    Nyssa killed and revived Talia several times near a Lazarus Pit until she broke her mentally, the whole thing ends being to much for Talia and she surrender toward her brainwashing to stop that torture cycle and Nyssa craddle her in her arms (Talia was also naked the whole time, just to add to the creepyness).
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