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  1. #2836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Pointing out that Cass and Steph are badly written doesn't make Babs better written.
    Doesn’t make Cass or Steph remotely interesting either, but here we are.

  2. #2837
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Doesn’t make Cass or Steph remotely interesting either, but here we are.
    Ditto for Barbara. Cass and Steph may be shadows of their former selves but Barbara is hardly setting the world ablsze now either.

    And before you say anything, no I don't hate the character.

  3. #2838
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Just sick of all the hypocrisy in this place. About time to start giving a little back of what I’ve been getting here.
    Giving a little back of what? You're the one being hostile to posters here.

  4. #2839
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Ditto for Barbara. Cass and Steph may be shadows of their former selves but Barbara is hardly setting the world ablsze now either.

    And before you say anything, no I don't hate the character.
    Cass and Steph were hardly ever comparable to Barbara: they could do whatever they do under any name, but they don’t scream ‘Batgirl’ and it shows. Why else were people putting up such a fuss to get Babs out of the role? This able-bodied Oracle certainly proved they don’t care for disabled rep.

  5. #2840
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Giving a little back of what? You're the one being hostile to posters here.
    Ten years of kicking and screaming and pissing and moaning: pointing out Barbara’s every little flaw and misstep and comparing it to two characters who hardly did it better or brought much else to the role, but somehow were more ‘worthy’ of the title. Well you got what you wanted didn’t you? So now you deserve to know what it feels like. Let’s see if ten years of this gets Babs back as Batgirl.

  6. #2841
    Extraordinary Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Ten years of kicking and screaming and pissing and moaning: pointing out Barbara’s every little flaw and misstep and comparing it to two characters who hardly did it better or brought much else to the role, but somehow were more ‘worthy’ of the title. Well you got what you wanted didn’t you? So now you deserve to know what it feels like. Let’s see if ten years of this gets Babs back as Batgirl.
    Barbara is going to be Oracle and Batgirl, nowhere near the same of what happened with Cass and Steph, who got erased from continuity, with writers being forbidden to bring them back.
    Last edited by Drako; 03-04-2021 at 06:52 PM.
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  7. #2842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    Barbara is going to be Oracle and Batgirl, nowhere near the same of what happened with Cass and Steph, who got erased from continuity, with writer being forbidden to bring them back.
    Barbara is hardly going to be used as Batgirl: all she’s going to be used for is a support role to prop up two characters who can’t stand on their own merit. Meanwhile, the writer’s going to constantly devalue her time as Batgirl and treat it like it’s disposable. Cass and Steph can do the exact same thing under ANY name, Barbara doesn’t get that luxury.

  8. #2843
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    The real-life reasons for why Barbara became Oracle are rather shameful and fan griping can get annoying but it's not really comparable to Cass and Steph being outlawed as characters for all intents and purposes for much of the early 2010s.

  9. #2844
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    The real-life reasons for why Barbara became Oracle are rather shameful and fan griping can get annoying but it's not really comparable to Cass and Steph being outlawed as characters for all intents and purposes for much of the early 2010s.
    No but the point still stands: even if Cass and Steph were included in the N52, it wouldn’t have been good enough. Barbara would still have been torn down and compared to those two for disingenuous reasons such as ‘worth’ and ‘value’ and representation which, ya know? Disabled person here: nobody’s batting an eyelid at able-bodied Oracle?—when Cass and Steph can do the -EXACT- same thing no matter what name they choose, but Barbara is perpetually kept inside without her own due acting as support. If Barbara had a more blended approach then yeah, great, but Tynion’s made it clear that he only wants her to be Batgirl ‘once in a blue moon,’ I.e, never while Cassandra and Steph fail to bring anything new or innovating that Barbara wasn’t doing.

  10. #2845
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Cass and Steph were hardly ever comparable to Barbara: they could do whatever they do under any name, but they don’t scream ‘Batgirl’ and it shows. Why else were people putting up such a fuss to get Babs out of the role? This able-bodied Oracle certainly proved they don’t care for disabled rep.
    ...Babs doesn’t “scream” Batgirl anymore than they do; like Barry Allen she’s not even really the first character to take a crack at the ID. And honestly, I”d say it’s a good thing that all three modern characters, including Babs, are bigger than the Batgirl role - as much as the “Batgirl vs Oracle” debate has merits based in the genesis of the Oracle ID, it is now an intrinsic part of the character’s pop culture identity as much as anything else.

    I would also argue that Oracle has that weird aspect of being her main “modern identity” in the same way Dick anal Jason have Nightwing and Red Hood; the legacy of that time period is still pretty much most of her greater maturity and depth, as well as her chemistry with other characters... or at least it *could* be; my more neutral musing is that its’ interesting that how much putting her back in the Batsuit coincided with decreasing her maturity and “seniority” in the Batfamily ranks - especially because (and I think most people would agree with this) that wasn’t neccessary.

    On a different “controversial opinion:”

    I think someone should experiment with making James Gordon the “rat” whistle-blower police officer as his backstory, and make his early career be pushing fore police reform. It may seem like this is trying to white wash the character from the shadier aspect of policing... but waht actually intrigues me about it is how much it can be used dramatically to escalate tension in the department, his hypocrisy/risk taking with Batman as his ally given his reform attempts, and the way it could play into how ostracized he and his more loyal officers are by other even “honest” officers.

    Have him go full Serpico, where he is totally willing to air out the Department’s dirty laundry so that *all* the police, even the ones not taking bribes, are against him... and have his quick promotion to Commissioner at a young age, and when not willing to play city hall’s game, be a “poison pill” to ruin him...

    ...Thus pushing him into an alliance with Batman despite its implications, and creating yet more issues with Babs’s desire to become Batgirl
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  11. #2846
    Extraordinary Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    No but the point still stands: even if Cass and Steph were included in the N52, it wouldn’t have been good enough. Barbara would still have been torn down and compared to those two for disingenuous reasons such as ‘worth’ and ‘value’ and representation which, ya know? Disabled person here: nobody’s batting an eyelid at able-bodied Oracle?—when Cass and Steph can do the -EXACT- same thing no matter what name they choose, but Barbara is perpetually kept inside without her own due acting as support. If Barbara had a more blended approach then yeah, great, but Tynion’s made it clear that he only wants her to be Batgirl ‘once in a blue moon,’ I.e, never while Cassandra and Steph fail to bring anything new or innovating that Barbara wasn’t doing.
    I doubt it people would complain as much if Cass and Steph were part of the New 52 as Black Bat and Spoiler. They would at least have comics to follow, instead of being mad that DC got rid of them in favor of another character.

    Having one of your favorites completely erased sucks, I know the felling since DC did the same with Wally and i hated.
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  12. #2847
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    I doubt it people would complain as much if Cass and Steph were part of the New 52 as Black Bat and Spoiler. They would at least have comics to follow, instead of being mad that DC got rid of them in favor of another character.

    Having one of your favorites completely erased sucks, I know the felling since DC did the same with Wally and i hated.
    Are you kidding? Even on their RETURN people were screaming how it wasn’t good enough. How Cass just cannot be -anything- but Batgirl, how Stephanie’s being disrespected as Spoiler. They had their own identities and presence but it just wasn’t good enough. Even Cass being in the outsiders, doing very little differently than what she does now wasn’t good enough!

    And you got what you wanted too as a Wally fan, I hear, Barry’s being shunted off across the multiverse but, hey, Barry’s fans get -something.- Babs-Batgirl fans have to make do with her being devalued, torn down, her accomplishments minimised if not outright ignored in favour of...two characters who have changed very little.

    Meanwhile, Babs is somehow ‘nobler’ and ‘more important’ in a support role, well if that’s the case why not do that to Bruce? He’d be -more- important because he was Batman!

  13. #2848
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    No, Stephanie wouldn’t have been able to engage in Burnside: she’d have no knowledge of the inner workings of the technology that was being used like Babs did, didn’t have an eidetic memory to navigate with; the emphasis was on puzzles and problem solving, plus sociology and disability, all out of Stephanie’s purview. Burnside was specially made for Babs to establish herself and her unique approach.
    I don't think all of that was out of Steph's wheelhouse to where it couldn't have worked or was so wholly unique to Babs. Maybe their interpretation of her, but that still felt like they were kind of channeling Steph.
    Again, editorial screwing Babs over because Simone did want to head in a lighter direction. And yes, Scott was a Cass fan, but unlike Tynion she saw the value in Babs as Batgirl and pushed it further. That’s the difference here.
    I don't think Tynion preferring Oracle means he doesn't see value in Babs as Batgirl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Barbara is hardly going to be used as Batgirl: all she’s going to be used for is a support role to prop up two characters who can’t stand on their own merit. Meanwhile, the writer’s going to constantly devalue her time as Batgirl and treat it like it’s disposable. Cass and Steph can do the exact same thing under ANY name, Barbara doesn’t get that luxury.
    I feel like there is a lot of assuming going on here.

    Why is it so wrong for Cass and Steph to be associated with the Batgirl name? They don't have any right to it? I don't see them stopping the name from being associated with Babs any more than the fact that they really never have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Are you kidding? Even on their RETURN people were screaming how it wasn’t good enough. How Cass just cannot be -anything- but Batgirl, how Stephanie’s being disrespected as Spoiler. They had their own identities and presence but it just wasn’t good enough. Even Cass being in the outsiders, doing very little differently than what she does now wasn’t good enough!
    I mean, because it wasn't that perfect? They still felt like a shell of themselves and like they were being rebuilt from the ground up with none of their history or character development intact, let alone the importance they had to the mythos.
    And you got what you wanted too as a Wally fan, I hear, Barry’s being shunted off across the multiverse but, hey, Barry’s fans get -something.- Babs-Batgirl fans have to make do with her being devalued, torn down, her accomplishments minimised if not outright ignored in favour of...two characters who have changed very little.
    I don't really see any of this happening in the actual books.
    Meanwhile, Babs is somehow ‘nobler’ and ‘more important’ in a support role, well if that’s the case why not do that to Bruce? He’d be -more- important because he was Batman!
    Oracle's better than Bruce at it.

  14. #2849
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Are you kidding? Even on their RETURN people were screaming how it wasn’t good enough. How Cass just cannot be -anything- but Batgirl, how Stephanie’s being disrespected as Spoiler. They had their own identities and presence but it just wasn’t good enough. Even Cass being in the outsiders, doing very little differently than what she does now wasn’t good enough!

    And you got what you wanted too as a Wally fan, I hear, Barry’s being shunted off across the multiverse but, hey, Barry’s fans get -something.- Babs-Batgirl fans have to make do with her being devalued, torn down, her accomplishments minimised if not outright ignored in favour of...two characters who have changed very little.

    Meanwhile, Babs is somehow ‘nobler’ and ‘more important’ in a support role, well if that’s the case why not do that to Bruce? He’d be -more- important because he was Batman!
    ...You’ve had nearly a decade of Babs back as Batgirl and headlining a book of some kind. You ain’t suffering more than fans of the other characters.

    All the Batgirls have suffered editorial capriciousness and casual neglect and cruelty; the line between someone okaying Babs getting shot in TKJ, Steph being tortured and murdered, and Cass being turned evil all come from the same pursuit of cheap shocks and cynical marketing ploys. Their individual returns were all fought for by fans who became creators themselves, and were all triumphant.

    This fanatical monopoly you want on the Batgirl identity for Babs just limits the brand, and exacerbates tensions for three characters who each helped each other in *some* way - whether it’s comfortable to realize it or not, Cass helped prove the solo could work, Steph was basically a prototype of the younger, hipper, college friendly Batgirl that Burnside was, and Babs was both the original modern trailblazer overall and mentor character for both of the others.

    And hell yes, all three can share the identity, and it doesn’t hurt anybody, because the title Batgirl gives all of the some f****ing respect, which all three have been deprived of.

    The idea it dilutes the brand is utter nonsense and useless drivel, whether it applies to the Robin, Batgirls, or Batmen, in fact.

    Call me back when the bat books don’t have spin-offs starring sidekicks that outsell and outlast Justice League members.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  15. #2850
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    ...You’ve had nearly a decade of Babs back as Batgirl and headlining a book of some kind. You ain’t suffering more than fans of the other characters.

    All the Batgirls have suffered editorial capriciousness and casual neglect and cruelty; the line between someone okaying Babs getting shot in TKJ, Steph being tortured and murdered, and Cass being turned evil all come from the same pursuit of cheap shocks and cynical marketing ploys. Their individual returns were all fought for by fans who became creators themselves, and were all triumphant.

    This fanatical monopoly you want on the Batgirl identity for Babs just limits the brand, and exacerbates tensions for three characters who each helped each other in *some* way - whether it’s comfortable to realize it or not, Cass helped prove the solo could work, Steph was basically a prototype of the younger, hipper, college friendly Batgirl that Burnside was, and Babs was both the original modern trailblazer overall and mentor character for both of the others.

    And hell yes, all three can share the identity, and it doesn’t hurt anybody, because the title Batgirl gives all of the some f****ing respect, which all three have been deprived of.

    The idea it dilutes the brand is utter nonsense and useless drivel, whether it applies to the Robin, Batgirls, or Batmen, in fact.

    Call me back when the bat books don’t have spin-offs starring sidekicks that outsell and outlast Justice League members.
    Wow! Way to miss the point completely dude!!

    The issue here isn’t them sharing the name, it’s how often if ever Babs gets to BE Batgirl!

    ‘Cos here’s the thing? The other two? Exact same **** no matter what name. But Batgirl vs Oracle? Two -completely- different ways of working and aspect of the character, often shunting Babs off into meaningless support and exposition?

    Can they share it? Absolutely. But it should be -equal-


    And hey: nearly a decade of Babs as Batgirl. Did ya stop to think? Maybe that’s where the anger’s coming from? Having grown to adore her during all that time? But you got just as long with Cass and Steph as Batgirl, and other characters in fact maybe -you- shouldn’t just suck it up! It’s been, like, what? Long enough?

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