Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[MajorHoy]

One of the biggest reasons Dick has such a big fan base is because he has consistently had ongoings...

. . . though it took him more than a half century to achieve that.
Prior to that, he would have solo-features, but not his own ongoing solo title series.

Tim had his first 5-issue solo run four years before Dick had his 4-issue Nightwing run.

[Agent Z]

I agree with you, but the last time the subject of Alfred came up people were quick to point out that he wasn’t always like that and some people don’t even support that version of the character.

Those people do not reflect the majority of Batman fans, nor does what Alfred started out like change what he has been like for several decades. Batman originally used guns, but a lot of fans would lose it if DC started having him do so again.

[Iclifton]

. . . though it took him more than a half century to achieve that.
Prior to that, he would have solo-features, but not his own ongoing solo title series.

Tim had his first 5-issue solo run four years before Dick had his 4-issue Nightwing run.

And?

Seriously not seeing what that has to do with what I said. The point I was making was I believe ongoing solos lead to a growing fan base and the possibility of strong stories. The poster pointed out Nightwing as an A lister and I attributed his fan base to his solos. Great, Tim had a solo. He also had a strong fan base. But it’s waining. He also hasn’t had a solo since 2011.

[ToryBlaker]

There is nothing to understand there, it's as simple as stated Period!

[Lal]

It's a fact.
If you're a fan of Jason, he's living a really sweet time. Last works he was in, have been well received by reviewers and fans: Urban Legends Cheer, Get Joker, Robins, Future State Gotham and now Task Force Z had reaped pretty solid or at least good reviews, and you can find a lot of people enjoying them and even recommending them. If that wasn't enough, he is part of the Titans United team book, and the Robins mini, and is going to have two new books wherein he will be either a regular or a main character: a 6 issues new mini story by Shawn Martinbrough, and the Beyond White Knight series, where he will be a prominent support role for either Bruce or Terry as much as Dick, if the preview and the cover are any indication. He's in a well established post as the more gray and antiheroic character in the batfam core, the one who gets dirty if he needs to, the troubled and struggling character because of his choices, and the one who works in the margins. And if that wasn't enough, he has had an (TW for opinions: awful) main role in the third season of (TW for opinions: the also awful) Titans show (why this one can't be as good as Doom Patrol? Sigh). He will also be one of the leads in the upcoming video game, shows up in a few other books, did great in Nightwing's last annual despite the caution both fanbases held and is one of the faves by the readers in that funny webtoon.

Unless you happen to dislike everything and can't enjoy a thing in the list. Or hope for him to be a villain, or a psycho. Or something.

So yeah, he's doing perfectly fine.
.

There's no doubt that Red Hood appears in more adaptations right now. The problem is that he's written quite differently and inconsistently in every single adaptation. He was more emotional and unbalanced in Cheer, in Titans United he still uses guns and is more fun and banters, in FS he's more serious and experienced. Some of those differences make sense, as FS takes part in this alternate timeline, but some of it is just different interpretations of the character.
I think DC's idea is to try different directions and see which interpretation gets the most readers and enthusiasm.

Btw - FS Gotham (and to some extent also Robins) aren't very well-received. FS Gotham is one of the lowest-selling bat books and its reception is more like C-.
Robins started with negative reviews but it's still too early to say for sure. We also don't know how well it sells yet.

So from one hand, Jason appears in more adaptations, but his only current continuity adaptation right now is Task force Z. Robins and Titans United are continuity adjacent. FS and White knight are alternate worlds/ timelines. SS get joker is keep being delayed, so I wonder if it got completely rewritten. It also didn't seem to generate a similar buzz or impact as, let's say, Dick's Robin&Batman mini generated, even though it could have been an interesting confrontation between Jason and Harley, or Jason and Joker, or even Harley and the Joker.

But it's definitely much better than the end of his Rebirth run.

[Zaresh]

There's no doubt that Red Hood appears in more adaptations right now. The problem is that he's written quite differently and inconsistently in every single adaptation. He was more emotional and unbalanced in Cheer, in Titans United he still uses guns and is more fun and banters, in FS he's more serious and experienced. Some of those differences make sense, as FS takes part in this alternate timeline, but some of it is just different interpretations of the character.
I think DC's idea is to try different directions and see which interpretation gets the most readers and enthusiasm.

Btw - FS Gotham (and to some extent also Robins) aren't very well-received. FS Gotham is one of the lowest-selling bat books and its reception is more like C-.
Robins started with negative reviews but it's still too early to say for sure. We also don't know how well it sells yet.

So from one hand, Jason appears in more adaptations, but his only current continuity adaptation right now is Task force Z. Robins and Titans United are continuity adjacent. FS and White knight are alternate worlds/ timelines. SS get joker is keep being delayed, so I wonder if it got completely rewritten. It also didn't seem to generate a similar buzz or impact as, let's say, Dick's Robin&Batman mini generated, even though it could have been an interesting confrontation between Jason and Harley, or Jason and Joker, or even Harley and the Joker.

But it's definitely much better than the end of his Rebirth run.

I think he's doing better than Barbara or Tim, for mentioning two inside the batman franchise.

Dick's Robin and Batman mini is a general audience aimed book pretty well promoted for its release and afterwards, that every Dick fan is going to collect and is also helped a little bit by the nostalgia effect. All of that unlike Azzarello's work, a mature aimed book that doesn't seem to have had a lot of promotion either after the first time it was announced and that, for some unknown reason, gets delayed again and again. Doesn't help that Azzarello's work is pretty divisive, I guess. I like both books a lot, honestly, but I don't think they can compare even when they share similarities, like being made by high profile teams and set in alternate universes/meshed-up continuities (well, it's not clear in the case of the Robin book. But I think it also is. Nowadays there's no true canon anymore, but many readers still try to fit books into a certain canon).

The Robins book was already fighting conflicting reception before it was released because of the poll-competition backlash. Yeah, it is a just-OK book as far as reviews go, with a mixed reception. But the last issue was better received already.

Titans United is a fun book aimed for a certain audience, a simpler fun driven work that its readers are enjoying (I don't like it, but those who are following it, do). It's a full and honest alternate universe that seems to have a character much like he is shown in several fan fictions: the somewhat* antagonistic badboy of the hero's band (the black/sixth* ranger of the team. *Or the Wolverine*).

And FS:G is set in an alternate future in a dead on arrival line of books that's also in pure black and white artstyle, already a hard to sell trait for your average superhero comic reader. It was pretty well promoted, and the actual reviews are pretty fine, average good. But it's not going to sell a lot, ever.

Honestly, it feels like some of you are comparing Dick and Jason as if they were in similar circumstances or equals sales and fandom alike. They're not. They don't get the same treatment and they never will. And despite Jason's growing popularity, he's nowhere near Dick's one. His comic fanbase, even if not small, is a lot smaller than Dick's, and classic readers aren't going to be so interested by his stories. He has an appeal, but to certain readers and his long term fans. He also has a lot of diehard haters. Just look at the polls in this very same forum. Or look at the pull lists users make when the solicits with new series arrive here: there's a lot of users that will purchase anything with Dick on it. With Jason? Just a bunch of us fans.

And this is my opinion on it too, but Jason in Cheer was a very distressed Jason initially, and the story was about his issues with Bruce and with himself. Once he worked those issues and got his head straight, he was once again like his collected self. That said, I know that some very dedicated fans (and not a few) have issues with Zdarsky take on him, but I don't. For me, it fits his character under previous emotionally stressed moments.

[Aahz]

I think one problem with Jason is that a lot of writers don't write him particularly well, and that you never really know what you are getting when a new series by a writer who has never written him before is announced.

[Zaresh]

I think one problem with Jason is that a lot of writers don't write him particularly well, and that you never really know what you are getting when a new series by a writer who has never written him before is announced.

I can see it being a factor in why not every fan buys the books he's in by first day release. But that wariness shouldn't last too long, right? Hummm... I don't know.

[MajorHoy]

And?

Seriously not seeing what that has to do with what I said. The point I was making was I believe ongoing solos lead to a growing fan base and the possibility of strong stories. The poster pointed out Nightwing as an A lister and I attributed his fan base to his solos. Great, Tim had a solo. He also had a strong fan base. But it’s waining. He also hasn’t had a solo since 2011.

You had said

One of the biggest reasons Dick has such a big fan base is because he has consistently had ongoings...

and I was pointing out he wasn't the first Robin/former Robin to have an ongoing self-titled book, plus who knows if Dick would have ever had his own self-titled series if Tim's Robin series hadn't proved so popular?

And like I said, Dick (as both Robin and later as Nightwing) did have his own feature off and on for several decades, but that's not quite the same thing. The fact that it took Dick so long to get his own solo-title may also not have been known to people who weren't regular readers of DC comic books prior to 1995.

[Iclifton]

You had saidand I was pointing out he wasn't the first Robin/former Robin to have an ongoing self-titled book, plus who knows if Dick would have ever had his own self-titled series if Tim's Robin series hadn't proved so popular?

And like I said, Dick (as both Robin and later as Nightwing) did have his own feature off and on for several decades, but that's not quite the same thing. The fact that it took Dick so long to get his own solo-title may also not have been known to people who weren't regular readers of DC comic books prior to 1995.

I never said he had an ongoing first. Just that a large part of his fan base is because of regularly having an ongoing. Which is true. Tim's ongoing is also a big part of his fan base. Dick Grayson was seen as a side kick, not a main character until he began featuring regularly in an ongoing.

Additionally, when Tim got that solo he was Robin, a marketable identity. A bit different then trying to build a fan base on a brand new identity. However, in my original post I never once compared Dick to Tim or stated he was the first to get a series.

[Jackalope89]

...Anyway, Zaresh is right. Most Jason fans are either content or even happy with Jason's level of exposure, stories, and characterization right now. With Future State Gotham being quite the surprise for him overall.

[dietrich]

Which is just one of the reasons I don't think it's particularly entertaining.

I love that shared Universe.

[JediBatman54]

Golden Age Batman is the best i do not like the modern versions of the character
i love The Dynamic Duo and the 1940s setting

[Restingvoice]

At this point Jason Todd characterization conflict:
1. Hero vs Anti hero vs Villain vs Anti villain
2. Gun vs no gun (though I heard this has been decided by WB to be no guns)
3. How close to Bat family
4. Street level vs superhero
In that order
That is the most conflicting take of a character within the Bat-family since people (both writers and fans) can't even agree on what his moral alignment should be, especially since each part of it relies on a different audience.
UTRH/AK -> Anti-villain
Morrison -> Villain
RHATO and current -> Anti-Hero
Batfam/WFA -> Hero
Again that's before going into the details such as his mental health, supporting cast, attitude and characterization, tone of the story, and how much people like him interact with other characters, but starting with his moral alignment/ideology, would be a start.
So there's a LOT, and each branching paths have its fans

Me, specfically, here's the branch I like:
Kill when necessary but otherwise no > Anti Hero > Out of Gotham > Street level > Guns! > Team optional > A fugitive in some states > Can visit Gotham > Not estranged with the Bat fam (reached an understanding) > Snarky family member who raid the fridge when he visits and I don't hate you but otherwise leave me the **** alone, dad

[TheRay]

Since we can't have our Nightwing go back the Teen Titans since he aged out, I think it could be fun to have a Nightwing from a different Earth running around who is still a teen.
The interactions between the two Nightwings would be very intriguing.