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  1. #2161

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    I think most of the added Batfamily members dating back to the Dixon years have proven to create a parasitic effect on the character of Batman.

    Many of them take a lot from the character and setting, and have given very little back. Especially in the sense that the city of Gotham feels more diluted with them around, and their interactions with Batman have largely seemed to warp him into a far less likeable character.

  2. #2162
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravelerInTheDark View Post
    I think most of the added Batfamily members dating back to the Dixon years have proven to create a parasitic effect on the character of Batman.

    Many of them take a lot from the character and setting, and have given very little back. Especially in the sense that the city of Gotham feels more diluted with them around, and their interactions with Batman have largely seemed to warp him into a far less likeable character.
    That's on the writer though. They can write him as a likable character and have a family at the same time

  3. #2163
    Incredible Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheManhunterfromMars View Post
    Jason Todd evolved better as individual character than Dick ever did. I donīt like Dick starring a solo, I think he fits better in teams
    Has Jason ever starring a solo?

  4. #2164
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    Has Jason ever starring a solo?
    Red Hood Lost Days from when he first revived until returning to Gotham as Red Hood
    Red Hood Outlaw from when he lost Artemis and Bizarro until they return

  5. #2165
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    With the Nightwing solos vs team is really is on the writer. He has been given good runs. It really has to be established what is Nightwing’s mythos outside Batman. What does he do. Who does he hang outside of Teen Titans and Bats. It’s important to make sure Nightwing has his own set of rules

  6. #2166
    Incredible Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravelerInTheDark View Post
    I think most of the added Batfamily members dating back to the Dixon years have proven to create a parasitic effect on the character of Batman.

    Many of them take a lot from the character and setting, and have given very little back. Especially in the sense that the city of Gotham feels more diluted with them around, and their interactions with Batman have largely seemed to warp him into a far less likeable character.
    Yes, I agree. From time to time someone manages to use the familly succefully, I think Morrison did it, and even then ignoring some of them. But the cannibalization effect has intensified since the new 52, the city, the characters and the mithos have been watered down. And Bruce has been portrayed like a jerk to keep conflicts going.

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Red Hood Lost Days from when he first revived until returning to Gotham as Red Hood
    Red Hood Outlaw from when he lost Artemis and Bizarro until they return
    Oh, Ok, then I'm not impressed with Jason as an individual character.

  7. #2167
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Nevermind.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-08-2020 at 11:31 PM.

  8. #2168
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravelerInTheDark View Post
    I think most of the added Batfamily members dating back to the Dixon years have proven to create a parasitic effect on the character of Batman.

    Many of them take a lot from the character and setting, and have given very little back. Especially in the sense that the city of Gotham feels more diluted with them around, and their interactions with Batman have largely seemed to warp him into a far less likeable character.
    i think it's more that Batman has begun to go downhill in character and ideals since Dixon, so he suddenly "needs" all these people.

  9. #2169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    Yes, I agree. From time to time someone manages to use the familly succefully, I think Morrison did it, and even then ignoring some of them. But the cannibalization effect has intensified since the new 52, the city, the characters and the mithos have been watered down. And Bruce has been portrayed like a jerk to keep conflicts going.
    I wouldn't say so, King's run was mostly Batman solo or Batman and Selina and he was still an ass.

    Other stories that show him with his family bring his nicer and lighter side to shine.

    I think the problem is that a lot of writers want to be the new Miller or someone similar and think the only way they'll be taken seriously or get attention is if they write Bruce even darker than before.
    Hitting a sidekick in the face is cheaper drama than actually putting some thought into interesting character interaction. Most of the time beef with Batman isn't even adressed in the main book.
    You could read King's run and not need to know what he did to Jason in RHatO, why Ric doesn't like Bruce or why Damian is also angry at him.
    Last edited by Ansa; 01-09-2020 at 12:55 AM.

  10. #2170
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheManhunterfromMars View Post
    Jason Todd evolved better as individual character than Dick ever did. I donīt like Dick starring a solo, I think he fits better in teams
    He he, I think the other way around.

    I think Dick works better when he's alone in his book, not as a team. And I do like Titans.
    Jason for me works a lot better when he's in a book with a team dynamic, most of the time because having people around himself usually has made him be his best version of himself. He also is a character that benefits of interacting with others to show his range of voice, so to speak. Works with a lot of different types of personalities in his team, which is something I can't say of others. He's the kind of a facilitator than a leader, too,, which is something I like. And ge makes for a great "lancer" role, when he's not the leader of a team.

    I also think that Dick had a better evolution as a character than Jason. It's just that currently we had a clearer direction for him than for Dick. But the period from 2004 to 2011 had a lot of problems for him as a character.

    (I don't know if I made myself clear, I'm currently a bit too sick to write something properly)
    This is a signature. It has letters on it, and those letters form words. Words like these. I will not quote anything because I'm uninspired but, I read a lot: I could!

    And this is my Tumblr. Sometimes I post stuff there.

  11. #2171
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravelerInTheDark View Post
    I think most of the added Batfamily members dating back to the Dixon years have proven to create a parasitic effect on the character of Batman.

    Many of them take a lot from the character and setting, and have given very little back. Especially in the sense that the city of Gotham feels more diluted with them around, and their interactions with Batman have largely seemed to warp him into a far less likeable character.
    Yep. It's not necessarily the fault of the characters', but there really isn't much for me to like the whole package together. I'm not overly interested in a lot of the Bat-Family members, though some of them I can enjoy in small doses, but not enough to constantly have them around and most of the time Bruce is just a flat, boring character they orbit around.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    i think it's more that Batman has begun to go downhill in character and ideals since Dixon, so he suddenly "needs" all these people.
    But they aren't really helping him go back uphill. If anything, sometimes they make it worse because Bruce needs to act like an abusive asshole to give their stories some drama.

    For Batman himself, I often have to go back to much older comics or other media to actually enjoy him, and most of the time that includes a much smaller Bat-Family or none at all. I think he works better as a character without all these hangers on. Their inclusion in the Bat-mythos often benefits them (because it gives them a spotlight) but seldom the actual main character.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 01-09-2020 at 07:19 AM.

  12. #2172
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    lol Batman has been the least interesting character whenever the family and villains are around because his default mode is "brood" just like every other character whose default mode is "brood"

    They often become the butt of the joke because nobody goes to a party just to stand around sulkily.
    He's still the smartest person in the room though, so if there's trouble at the party, the rest, whether the family of Justice League will defer to him for a solution.

    Saying the family makes Batman boring or abusive is disingenuous when he's not like that with the Justice League. So who decides to write him that way?

    Why do they need to give drama, even? The family consists of some very colorful personalities that became the life of the party with snarks and jokes. They're not the ones in need of drama because their personality and banters make up for it.

  13. #2173
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    lol Batman has been the least interesting character whenever the family and villains are around because his default mode is "brood" just like every other character whose default mode is "brood"
    His default personality should not be brood though. He didn't used to be that way. Back in the Bronze Age (which is the best Batman, IMO) he had a much more varied personality set.

  14. #2174
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    I honestly don't understand why you're even complaining.

    85 issues of Tom King's Batman: Family is almost non-existent.
    1 Batman issue by Tynion: No family
    Detective Comics by Tomasi: Except for one arc, no family
    The Batman's grave: No family
    Batman Damned: No family
    Batman Universe: Except for one issue with Nightwing, no family.
    Doomsday Clock: No family
    Batman/Superman: No family
    Batman White Night: Except for Dick and Barbara here and there, no family.
    Justice League: Family appeared once in a group shot and said like two sentences.

    Batman appearances in RHato, Nightwing, Teen Titans and Young Justice have been minimal or didn't happen at all for over a year.

    The family is not the problem if you don't like current Batman.

  15. #2175
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansa View Post
    I honestly don't understand why you're even complaining.

    85 issues of Tom King's Batman: Family is almost non-existent.
    1 Batman issue by Tynion: No family
    Detective Comics by Tomasi: Except for one arc, no family
    The Batman's grave: No family
    Batman Damned: No family
    Batman Universe: Except for one issue with Nightwing, no family.
    Doomsday Clock: No family
    Batman/Superman: No family
    Batman White Night: Except for Dick and Barbara here and there, no family.
    Justice League: Family appeared once in a group shot and said like two sentences.

    Batman appearances in RHato, Nightwing, Teen Titans and Young Justice have been minimal or didn't happen at all for over a year.

    The family is not the problem if you don't like current Batman.
    It can be one of the problems. And they've been around (and growing) since the Dixon days, so it's not like it's just the comics from the last few years.

    Anyway, this is the controversial opinions thread. Not everyone has to love the Bat-Family. Gotham is filled with a bunch of uninteresting spin off characters and they may or may not have a hand in Batman being a boring, one note brooding patriarch, but one can dislike it all around.

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