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  1. #2221
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Beyond the typical cartoony Silver age dickery (which is applicable to almost every character, Dick Grayson included), Bruce's abuse towards Dick is mostly retroactive due to stuff like the post-COIE tweaks to the dissolution of their partnership and stuff like Dixon's godawful Nightwing: Year One. Beyond that, the two could be jerks to each other but also hashed it out and made up like actual adults, like the pre-retcon (and vastly superior) story of Dick becoming Nightwing. I might actually like the larger Bat-Family more if they were built up around the pre-COIE guy instead of the douche the likes of Miller, Dixon, Rucka and Brubaker left us.
    The earlier stages of the New 52 drastically reduced the Batfamily and we still got an abusive Batman, one arguably worse than anything that had come before (well except for Miller's ASBAR). Look at what he did to Dick after Forever Evil where Dick had been tortured, unmasked and nearly killed on live television. He fakes Dick's death without even consulting him and then verbally and physically beats him down for getting his identity exposed forcing him to go undercover.

    The wider Batfamily gets blamed for Bruce's character derailment into an abusive control freak but most of his vile moments have nothing to do with them and the biggest victim of Bruce's cruelty is Dick, the original Robin. Reducing or removing the Bat family won't make Bruce a better person. The writers will just have him be an asshole to other people. Hell, I'd make the argument he's treated the JL members worse than most of his kids so why aren't we seeing more calls for him to be removed from the League?

  2. #2222
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    The New 52 Batfamily was still too big.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  3. #2223
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I think it's just correlation, rather than causation, with post-COIE-and-beyond Batdick and the expanded family. Much like Alfred becoming his parental figure and his increasing emotionally-unhealthy state. They happened in the same era, but don't really have anything to do with each other. Post-COIE Bruce also tends to treat other heroes like crap fairly frequently. The way he treats the fam abusively is a symptom of his changed characterization to a jerk, rather than their presence causing him to be jerk.

    Dixon is weird one to me - I liked a lot of his 90s Batfam stuff. I mean, he had some good Bruce & Dick moments. But then there was some crap, too, and it got much worse later. Nightwing: Year One was really unreadable to me, and I deeply disliked Batgirl: Year One. Robin: Year One started well, but went downhill. And, I will say that for me, Bruce was going downhill by 1999. Some put it after NML, but it was definitely during for me (at latest), and there were problems before that. Late 80s Batman was frequently crappy to other heroes when not in his own book, too, really. But there was still some good stuff in the early-to-mid-90s. By the NML, though, the bad outweighed the good for me. It's not fair of me perhaps - there's certainly been some good with Bruce and how he treats others since - but late 90s is the crossover point to me when I go to only reading Batman if there's a specific story that sounds interesting or a writer I've heard good things about.

    The writers will just have him be an asshole to other people. Hell, I'd make the argument he's treated the JL members worse than most of his kids so why aren't we seeing more calls for him to be removed from the League?
    Well, I wouldn't be opposed...seriously, I've said before that there are times when Bruce has been so abusive to people that it would be better for them to just excise him from their lives and not interact with him anymore at all (oh, the early 2000s). That it would be much healthier for them. I'd read everyone else and be fine with letting Batman go. He could be the loner so many want him to be. I guess his abusive nature wouldn't be as noticeable if there was no one around for him to be abusive to, but that's not the solution I'm looking for.

    But I cannot deny that the Batman who treats people that way moves product and makes money for DC. So we'll get more of him, no doubt.


    I will agree that the original Robin-to-Nightwing transition was so much better. But the change is not one that I think was made to further Dick's character (emotional journey, etc.) by casting Bruce in bad light. It wasn't Dick's existence that caused Batman to be made to look bad. I think the idea of an emotionally stunted Batman was popular at the time - and it has held on since. Likewise, the way he treated Jason in recruiting him (calling Robin instead of Jason, later saying he took him in because he missed Dick, etc.) was, I think, to the same end. The idea of Batman that couldn't relate healthily to others was what they were going for. It was about Bruce. The kids were just a means to that end. Also, perhaps, though, it was a way to keep Dick more separate, I don't know. I doubt it, though, since he was adequately separate without all that pre-COIE. And I think Bruce the Leaguers the way he does because writers/fans perceive that to make more of a badass, and more awesome. I don't agree with that, but I do think it is the mindset.

    Part of it, too, is that family often took a dive in more recent comics. Once Hal got along fantastically with both his brothers. Wally wrote letters about how awesome his parents were. Later, for the sake of "realism" (seriously, a loving electronics engineer dad is less realistic than a Manhunter dad?) or more accurately for drama, a lot of inter-family relationships got worse. Some in bronze age, some post-COIE, and some even later. That's unfortunate to me. I don't mind a character created with a bad family relationship, but I don't like it retconned on relationships that were previously good.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 01-11-2020 at 09:48 AM.

  4. #2224
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The earlier stages of the New 52 drastically reduced the Batfamily and we still got an abusive Batman, one arguably worse than anything that had come before (well except for Miller's ASBAR). Look at what he did to Dick after Forever Evil where Dick had been tortured, unmasked and nearly killed on live television. He fakes Dick's death without even consulting him and then verbally and physically beats him down for getting his identity exposed forcing him to go undercover.
    Tzigone said it better than me: it's more correlation than causation. Writers like Dixon who built up the modern Bat-Family and the dynamics between them also laid the foundation for Bruce to become the horribly abusive asshole he can be exaggerated as now. It's not that the two ideas are necessarily or deliberately linked, it's just unfortunate timing. Beyond that it's gotten to the point where Batman is now a jerk regardless of who he is around, but that still doesn't leave a lot of examples of stories where there is a larger Bat-Family and Batman being likeable at the same time. If other media like films and serialized cartoons can expand the Bat-Family more while keeping Bruce likeable it will be a better take.

    The New 52 Bat-Family was reduced, but not as drastically as you make it sound. Four Robins squeezed into a five year timeline is still way too big. It was basically only missing Cass and Steph and had them added back in later, with the additions of Duke and Harper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Dixon is weird one to me - I liked a lot of his 90s Batfam stuff. I mean, he had some good Bruce & Dick moments. But then there was some crap, too, and it got much worse later. Nightwing: Year One was really unreadable to me, and I deeply disliked Batgirl: Year One. Robin: Year One started well, but went downhill. And, I will say that for me, Bruce was going downhill by 1999. Some put it after NML, but it was definitely during for me (at latest), and there were problems before that. Late 80s Batman was frequently crappy to other heroes when not in his own book, too, really. But there was still some good stuff in the early-to-mid-90s. By the NML, though, the bad outweighed the good for me. It's not fair of me perhaps - there's certainly been some good with Bruce and how he treats others since - but late 90s is the crossover point to me when I go to only reading Batman if there's a specific story that sounds interesting or a writer I've heard good things about.
    Yeah those are all REALLY bad as far as Bruce is concerned. I don't think Dixon writes the character well at all.
    And honestly, while he has a solid grasp on Dick and Babs, you can get better writing for both elsewhere.

  5. #2225
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    the idea that the "batfamily is too big now" is laughable when Batman incorporated was a thing pre-New 52...
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Guardian.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector
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    Anticipated titles: John Ridley IV's Batman w/Luke Fox, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  6. #2226
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    the idea that the "batfamily is too big now" is laughable when Batman incorporated was a thing pre-New 52...
    That could be part of the trend that makes people think it's too big...

  7. #2227
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    That could be part of the trend that makes people think it's too big...
    I find it silly because people often aim it at characters created post-New 52 (characters that are usually underutilized anyway) as if new these characters are the herald of the end times. even subtracting Batman Inc, the Batfamily wasn't much smaller. it just seems like one of those fandom things where people need to show how much of a fan they are by complaining about non-problems and sucking the fun out of the properties they claim to "love"
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Guardian.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector
    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, Avengers
    Anticipated titles: John Ridley IV's Batman w/Luke Fox, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  8. #2228
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Yeah those are all REALLY bad as far as Bruce is concerned. I don't think Dixon writes the character well at all.
    And honestly, while he has a solid grasp on Dick and Babs, you can get better writing for both elsewhere.
    It's his writing of Barbara I don't like in Batgirl: Year One. I really dislike the post-COIE convention of her being a protege of Bruce. Of starting off incompetent. I loathe the power-imbalace of them knowing her identity for so long when she didn't know theirs. I hate Bruce granting permission for her to work or giving her supplies (the rope).

    the idea that the "batfamily is too big now" is laughable when Batman incorporated was a thing pre-New 52...
    For the record, I really don't like the concept of Batman Incorporated at all. And, while I like Damian and would not get rid of him, I would not have given Bruce a biological child. It definitely leads to a difference in perception and treatment of the others (like a reboot where he's still Bruce's kid, and no one else is).

    I liked Tim better when his dad was alive. And I just never could get into Cass, but think she should be present. I do like Barbara, Dick, Tim, and Steph. I preferred Steph as Spoiler, not Batgirl. Don't like Barbara running Bruce's tech support/doing his research/operating out of his building. Dick, as an adult, should only visit, definitely not live in Gotham. I liked Duke (though not the concept of We Are Robin), but prefer him not with Batman and not operating out of Batman's cave (I'd ever prefer he not use a headquarters built by Batman as in mini). I do think the Duke and Damian vibe can work well. Like him with Riko and Izzy, too, of course. Can't say I read any of the others, but nothing about them was interesting enough to make me want to read New 52 (which I have issues with changed Tim origin, Dick a late-teen when recruited, Dick and Barbara de-aged, etc. so it would take a bit to get me to read). I'm not into anti-heroes so don't read Jason (and he was all over the map, to say the least, in post-COIE), but he was fine as a kid, and I don't like the bad-seed-victim-blaming tactic DC went with at all.

    So, for me, it's that I haven't read a lot of the New 52 characters, and they aren't important to the Batfamily or mythos to me. So I'm willing put them on the chopping block to devote time and attention to the characters I do like. But that doesn't mean I think then new characters themselves are the problems.

    Edit: And I forgot, because I so don't include them in the Batfamily. Helena Bertinelli is fine, but she doesn't need to be part of the Batfam. Jean Paul Valley is pretty forgettable/droppable to me, despite his participation in a major storyline. And I never remember Harold. And am willing to lose Leslie as part of Bruce's life (simply keeping her clinic as one Wayne funds in adulthood) and not have her a secretkeeper.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 01-11-2020 at 12:15 PM.

  9. #2229
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I thought they did a great job in Batman Hush the animated movie. They showed how frightening it can be to fight Superman, he nearly killed Batman, if Clark hadn't woken up when Catwoman threw Lois off the building, Clark was just on the verge of killing Bruce. They really presented it that Bruce, even with Kryptonite was barely able to delay Superman long enough for Catwoman to get Lois.
    As much as I hated the Superman: Sacrifice storyline... I loved the fact that it showed a 'real' Superman v Batman fight. Superman was tricked into thinking that he was fighting someone else... Brainiac, Doomsday, Darkseid… I can't remember which one this was, but in reality he was fighting Batman. Next issue shows Batman in the Watchtower in a full body cast on life support while Superman looks sad/guilty...

  10. #2230
    Incredible Member kaimaciel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I liked Tim better when his dad was alive. And I just never could get into Cass, but think she should be present. I do like Barbara, Dick, Tim, and Steph. I preferred Steph as Spoiler, not Batgirl. Don't like Barbara running Bruce's tech support/doing his research/operating out of his building. Dick, as an adult, should only visit, definitely not live in Gotham. I liked Duke (though not the concept of We Are Robin), but prefer him not with Batman and not operating out of Batman's cave (I'd ever prefer he not use a headquarters built by Batman as in mini). I do think the Duke and Damian vibe can work well. Like him with Riko and Izzy, too, of course. Can't say I read any of the others, but nothing about them was interesting enough to make me want to read New 52 (which I have issues with changed Tim origin, Dick a late-teen when recruited, Dick and Barbara de-aged, etc. so it would take a bit to get me to read). I'm not into anti-heroes so don't read Jason (and he was all over the map, to say the least, in post-COIE), but he was fine as a kid, and I don't like the bad-seed-victim-blaming tactic DC went with at all.
    Oof, the Pre-New 52 victim-blaming was everywhere. I love the Hush comic but Bruce's line "I always knew Dick had talent. Jason only had rage." always bothers me. Someone made an article a while back with every single time Jason was either demeaned or blamed for his own murder, I had no idea how frequent it was until I read it. Some were even incorrect, with characters saying that Jason rushed in to face the Joker and disobeyed Batman: he didn't. Jason was lured by his mother to a warehouse to talk, neither he or Bruce knew she was working with the Joker.

    The funny thing is, during both the New 52 and Rebirth, Jason took all responsibility for his death. He never blamed Bruce. During Rebirth he had a whole comic "talking" with his Robin self and telling him that he died because he went alone, his last words were "Bruce... I'm sorry..."

  11. #2231
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Yeah, like I said, I'm not even a Jason fan, but the way that character was treated still makes me angry.

  12. #2232
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    Batman should be again a deputized member of the GCPD.

  13. #2233
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Batman should be again a deputized member of the GCPD.
    I would actually be 100% fine with this.

    I want Batman hanging out with them at parties and singing Christmas carols with them again.

  14. #2234
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Batman should be again a deputized member of the GCPD.
    Arrow kind of lost it's luster for me when they made Green Arrow and Team Arrow SCPD deputies. I get why they did it, it was kind of interesting, but it just didn't do it for me like them being mysterious, masked, vigilante's.

    There are Superheroes I can buy being deputized. Superman? Sure. But not really modern Batman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    It's his writing of Barbara I don't like in Batgirl: Year One. I really dislike the post-COIE convention of her being a protege of Bruce. Of starting off incompetent. I loathe the power-imbalace of them knowing her identity for so long when she didn't know theirs. I hate Bruce granting permission for her to work or giving her supplies (the rope).
    If we're talking strictly about Year One, I don't think she started off incompetent. She was just a rookie, and the identity thing didn't really last that long before everyone knew who everybody was.

    It was also less Bruce granting her permission and more Babs making it clear she would keep doing this with or without his permission, so he thought it better to be involved in molding her as a hero instead of letting her do this without supervision.

  15. #2235
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    If we're talking strictly about Year One, I don't think she started off incompetent. She was just a rookie, and the identity thing didn't really last that long before everyone knew who everybody was.
    It's been a long time since I read it - I recall her jumping off with a pretty regular rope that immediately broke. That's pretty incompetent to me - she'd have immediately been dead if not for the intervention of others. Apologies if I am misremembering. And it may not have lasted "that long" (how long?), but it was a very definite power imbalance. He had all the control, all the power.

    It was also less Bruce granting her permission and more Babs making it clear she would keep doing this with or without his permission, so he thought it better to be involved in molding her as a hero instead of letting her do this without supervision.
    You say po-tay-to, I say po-tah-to - either way, it's set up for him to allow it. You can say she would have done it without him being okay with it, but what it comes down to is him "allowing" it.

    so he thought it better to be involved in molding her as a hero instead of letting her do this without supervision.
    Which is vastly inferior to the original where she did not need him to mold or teach her. And, again, a very definitely power imbalance with her made subordinate to him. Not okay with me.


    Actually, I have a real issue with second-gen (not Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman who were made second gen by JSA being moved to same earth, but the actual later ones - bronze or post-COIE introductions) in the post-COIE era, especially, needing to prove their mettle or be approved or guided or molded by first-geners. It's not all of them, but I hate it. Those heroes, for the most part, got to operate on their own, with no one else's interference. To be totally independent, without needing instruction or validation from anyone else or having anyone show up to criticize them. And be awesome from the start. Too often with newer heroes, they have get validation (or worse, correction) from the older heroes to be deemed worthy or respected, and that does not work for me. Not with adults (kids are something of a different story).

    Also, Batman acting like the King of Gotham who gets to forbid other heroes from working there - not okay with me. One of the reasons I mark his Batjerkness to No Man's Land at latest.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 01-11-2020 at 05:40 PM.

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