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  1. #2071
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    There's nothing new about a Batman that smiles. Pre-crisis Batman smiled a lot. Why are people forgetting that? Dick wasn't the first "happy" Batman.
    There's also nothing new about a Batman that kills: Pre-crisis Batman, King's DickBats from an alternate timeline, Tim's Batman/Savior, the Grim Knight, Flashpoint Batman (I think), some evil versions of Damian too, other versions of Bruce etc.
    Your taking it the too literal and missing the point. The point isn't Dick smiled, Bruce didn't. Its about the whole behavioral and personality differences that made Dick different from Bruce. Dick wasn't even the "happy" Batman, because he didn't want to be Batman and well his hero just died. Point is if he didn't act or operate like Dick, and instead just tried to be more like Bruce by honoring his rules or whatever, there there would have been nothing really different or new about his Batman from the Batman previous. It would have been terrible, and you wouldn't have had Dick and Damian reversing the classic Batman and Robin dynamic. Same would be true for Jason. Jason becoming Batman only to act more like Bruce did because he's going to honor Bruce's rules now, defeats the entire purpose. If he's Batman he would have to be a Batman that is willing kill and be generally go to more extremes. Cause that is the sell that Jason could bring to the table there.

    That being said with having the likes of the Grim Knight, Flashpoint Batman, and Batman666 even. That doesn't really help the idea of Jason becoming Batman.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-06-2020 at 02:53 PM.

  2. #2072
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Jason as the new Batman but doesn’t kill, would be like Dick as the new Batman that doesn’t smile. Take away the biggest thing that would make the idea of him as the new Batman new and different, then what’s the point. All those questions you propose become far more complicated and interesting if Jason is actually doing something that Bruce didn’t do. Something that certain people and likes the JL might actually have a problem with.
    So, what you're telling me is, that the many, many conflicts and implications that Jason,

    -A known vigilante that has committed murdering,
    -That has serious emotional problems,
    -Doesn't have a constant and strong support system
    -And is overall looked warily by everyone, if not straight distrusted,

    Could* have* are the same that Dick being "the Batman who smiles" (and that's not fair for Dick as Batman either).

    Eh.... (edit: imagine me doing a so-so gesture with my hand: it's that kind of "eh")
    I know that you and me see and expect different things of Jason. But reducing Jason to "the bat who kills" is simplistic. I've listed already a handfull of interesting points that would make his story as Batman interesting, and they're definitely something that Dick couldn't bring to the table, just because they don't share the same struggles. At best, they share some insecurity filling the cowl: but that's all.

    And lets not forget that we're talking about a what if scenario. "Elseworlds" tend to be minis or one-shots, not even short runs. The premise is more than enough for an interesting read.

    (Edit: just in case, I don't mean to sound disrespectful. I respect you're opinion, but I disagree)
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-06-2020 at 03:14 PM.
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  3. #2073
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Wasn't Jason a Villain under Winnick? Wasn't that the path he was on before Morrison?

    I actually liked Jason as a villain. I'm one of a few that liked Morrison's Jason [that's my controversial opinion] these days I don't know what he's supposed to be.
    Winick's Jason was an antagonist, not exactly a villain. An Anti-Villain. He antagonized Bruce and didn bad deeds, but wasn't evil in nature, as you could expect of a straight villain. Actually, he was pretty grey and neutral outside that story under Winick, as far as I recall. And he was definitely an anti-hero in Dini's Countdown to Final Crisis, which was just before RIP and Battle for the Cowl, which is where Morrison's Jason comes from. When Winick got to write Jason again, later in Morrison's run, he was, again, (as far as I remember him) being rather gray more than evil, even if he was antagonistic still.

    Jason was the one thing I definitely disliked in Morrison's Dickbats. And I loved reading that book.

    If I'm not remembering wrong, or I didn't read it out of order (because I wasn't reading up to date then. I read it all a few years later).
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-06-2020 at 03:04 PM.
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  4. #2074
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Wasn't Jason a Villain under Winnick? Wasn't that the path he was on before Morrison?

    I actually liked Jason as a villain. I'm one of a few that liked Morrison's Jason [that's my controversial opinion] these days I don't know what he's supposed to be.
    Jason was a counter argument under Winick. He wasn't good guy, but he wasn't a villain in a classical sense either. But ya, he was far more interesting then whatever they try to pretend he is these days.

  5. #2075
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    So, what you're telling me is, that the many, many conflicts and implications that Jason,

    -A known vigilante that has committed murdering,
    -That has serious emotional problems,
    -Doesn't have a constant and strong support system
    -And is overall looked warily by everyone, if not straight distrusted,

    Are the same that Dick being "the Batman who smiles".

    Eh....
    I know that you and me see and expect different things of Jason. But reducing Jason to "the bat who kills" is simplistic. I've listed already a handfull of interesting points that would make his story as Batman interesting, and they're definitely something that Dick couldn't bring to the table, just because they don't share the same struggles. At best, they share some insecurity filling the cowl: but that's all.

    And lets not forget that we're talking about a what if scenario. "Elseworlds" tend to be minis or one-shots, not even short runs. The premise is more than enough for an interesting read.
    They are not conflicts if there isn't actually conflict then. A known vigilante that has committed murder not murdering isn't conflict. Having serious problems, but those problems not causing problems then isn't conflict. Ect, ect. Not killing, and respecting Bruce's rules, would take off the table the biggest source of potential conflict Jason's Batman would have. Hooks don't need to be overly complicated, but something people can easily digest and be brought in. And then you get more complicated.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-06-2020 at 03:16 PM.

  6. #2076
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    No writer can make a fan feel like a replacement is a legitimate choice if they already have a character that they have their mind set on who belongs in that role.

    A good batman isn't the same as a legitimate heir. This why some fans to this day have never accepted Damian as a Robin and why so many are asking why isn't Dick Replacing Batman in 5G and why No one why isn't Jim replacing Batman in 5G. One is a legitimate choice in the minds of fans the other isn't.

    We already saw Tim as Batman in main Universe. He got stab by Jason and left for dead because he rushed into the fray. Damian had to go save him along with Squire.
    Of course fans are biased. Dick fans want Dick as next Batman - and other fans want maybe other characters as next Batman. In my mind every Robin is a legitimate heir/choice. I'm fine with Luke too for 5G. There will always be some fans who are butthurt because their favorite character wasn't chosen.

    I don't see how Jason stabbing Tim and Damian saving Tim makes Tim a bad Batman. Would you claim that Damian is a bad Robin because he died or that Dick is a bad Nightwing because he nearly died in Forever Evil? Or that Bruce is a bad Batman because Bane broke his back?

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Evil Damian? Is Jason evil because he occasionally kills? This is so strange to me when One character does something he's evil another then he's an anti hero. Batman666 who sole his soul to protect the citzens of Gotham . So evil.

    No future Damian is evil fyi. I don't understand how some can read something and remember another.
    Fyi, I wasn't talking about Batman666. Batman666 isn't evil. Chill a little bit. Every Robin has an evil version. That's DC - and DC earns their money with evil Batman and Robin versions.
    I can't remember the comic, but I remember some panels about an evil Damian - and some screenshots from a movie.
    I'm not a Damian fan, I don't know his whole DC history in every detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Wasn't Jason a Villain under Winnick? Wasn't that the path he was on before Morrison?

    I actually liked Jason as a villain. I'm one of a few that liked Morrison's Jason [that's my controversial opinion] these days I don't know what he's supposed to be.
    Winnick's Jason didn't have red hair, neither in BUtH nor in Red Hood: The Lost Days. Winnick also made it a point that Jason is not crazy while Morrison's Jason was completely nuts.
    I hated what Morrison did with Jason, especially in comparison to Dick and Damian. Dick and Damian were pushed as "heroes" while Jason had to be the "evil Robin" in order to symbolize Dick and Damian as "good Robins". Damian and Jason are both murderer and traumatized characters but for some reason Dick "Heart of the family" Grayson decided that Damian deserves happiness and Jason punishment.

    He's an anti-hero in my eyes, because he kills when necessary, fights crime and protects civilians/innocent people. Others still see him as hero because he only kills "bad guys". The easy way is to call Jason a vigilante. That's always true.
    I also call everyone in the batfamily a vigilante because I don't consider anyone a "hero". For example, characters like Jason, Damian, Cass or Kate can never be heroes for me because they have killed in the past. That's not something that can be undone.
    "Hero", "anti-hero", "anti-villain" and "villain" can be very vague depending on your own definition.
    Last edited by Sergard; 01-06-2020 at 03:17 PM.

  7. #2077
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    They are not conflicts if there isn't actually conflict then. A known vigilante that has committed murder not murdering isn't a conflict. Having serious problems, but those problems not causing problems then isn't conflict. Ect, ect. Not killing, and following rules, would take off the table the biggest source of potential conflict Jason's Batman would have. Hooks don't need to be overly complicated, but something people can easily digest and be brought in. And then you can get complicated.
    But they're going to conflict him. He's going to wear the cowl because he has to and he's going to respect Bruce code out of respect. That's a lot to bear while people know who you're, what you did and don't repent, and what you're doing while struggling with it (because at some point he's going to come across some baddie that he would rather kill). People are not going to want to work with him, they're not going to respect him. Heck, they would even want to imprison him even when he's Batman. I could see Gordon hunting him pretty restlessly because he fears he's going to return to his actual methods at some point. And rogues? Those guys are going to play dirty and nasty with him because they think that he's not much better than him, if at all.

    I would love to write that story (it I could, but I'm not good enough). I can think of a lot of nice stuff that I would enjoy reading. I have a hard time not seeing the appeal, personally :3.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-06-2020 at 03:28 PM. Reason: my English sucks
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  8. #2078
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    Winnick's Jason didn't have red hair, neither in BUtH nor in Red Hood: The Lost Days. Winnick also made it a point that Jason is not crazy while Morrison's Jason was completely nuts.
    I hated what Morrison did with Jason, especially in comparison to Dick and Damian. Dick and Damian were pushed as "heroes" while Jason had to be the "evil Robin" in order to symbolize Dick and Damian as "good Robins". Damian and Jason are both murderer and traumatized characters but for some reason Dick "Heart of the family" Grayson decided that Damian deserves happiness and Jason punishment.
    Jason wasn't Dick's to save. He was grown ass man, making grown ass man decisions. Damain was the 10 year old son of Dick's savior that didn't know any better.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-06-2020 at 03:25 PM.

  9. #2079
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Jason wasn't Dick's to save. He was grown ass man, making grown ass man decisions. Damain was the 10 year old son of Dick's savior that didn't know any better.
    Jason was, what? 20 then? Barely a man. And he did most of his Red Hood stuff when he was 17 or so. He was 14 when he died. I wouldn't say that a teenager with already PTSD problems and an awful upbringing but for three years he passed with Bruce and Alfred—fighting crime, even—, then died, then was brainwashed/manipulated by some dark cult of assassins, is a "grownass man." Edit: He needed support and help, as any other victim, at the very least. Edit again: Because even when he was a perpetrator, he was also a victim.

    Edit: More if you take into account that he was:
    -Freshout of Arkham (or Blackgate, I don't remember which one was), where he was imprisoned with people that knew him.
    -Saw that awful tape. Godlord, it was a tasteless move.
    -Had just lost his father, because he still loved Bruce, despite of all.

    Edit: and I'm someone who thinks that if you're old enough to vote, you are already half-way to maturity and should be responsible enough to know what you're doing. But that's not always the case, or not the case for every responsibility out there. I couldn't manage to be a judge, for example, even if I actually am a grownass adult, because I'm just not prepared to decide what's to become of the life of someone else.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-06-2020 at 03:48 PM.
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  10. #2080
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    But they're going to conflict him. He's going to wear the cowl because he has to and he's going to respect Bruce code because out of respect. That's a lot to bear while people know who you're, what you did and don't repent, and what you're doing while struggling with it (because at some point he's going to come across some baddie that he would rather kill). People is not going to want to work with him, they're not going to respect him. Heck, they would even want to imprison him even if he's Batman not. I could see Gordon hunting him because pretty restlessly because he fears he's going to return to his actual methods at some point. And rogues? Those guys are going to play dirty and nasty with him because they think that he's not much better than him, if at all.

    I would love to write that story (it I could, but I'm not good enough). I can think of a lot of nice stuff that I would enjoy reading. I have a hard time not seeing the appeal, personally :3.
    Agreed. (And I'd love to read that story.)
    Jason has also the potential to be a symbol of redemption for characters who want to redeem themselves - because Jason has been in a similar position, he has a better understanding of their situation.
    He knows their struggles/problems, he knows how it feels to have nobody in one's corner - and he knows that redemption is a life-long journey - not just one story arc or mini-series. Or not just a simple excuse.
    That's what I loved about Earth-15 (Batman Jason). There weren't only well-known heroes in the Justice League but also ex-villains like Zod as Superman and Lex Luthor.
    And that's also what I love about the current Rebirth run. Jason gives people like Bizarro, Artemis or Generation Outlaw a genuine chance - others wouldn't have done the same.

  11. #2081
    Don't Bully a Hurt Dragon Sergard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Jason wasn't Dick's to save. He was grown ass man, making grown ass man decisions. Damain was the 10 year old son of Dick's savior that didn't know any better.
    Of course Jason was Dick's to save. Dick is supposed to be a hero. And heroes save people who need help. And Jason needed help. Even "grown ass men" (and women) sometimes need help from others, not just 10 year old kids. And I think it's a sad testimony for Dick when he only saved Damian because he is Bruce' blood. Don't you think Dick would have still saved Damian if he hadn't been the "son of Dick's savior"?

  12. #2082
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    Of course Jason was Dick's to save. Dick is supposed to be a hero. And heroes save people who need help. And Jason needed help. Even "grown ass men" (and women) sometimes need help from others, not just 10 year old kids. And I think it's a sad testimony for Dick when he only saved Damian because he is Bruce' blood. Don't you think Dick would have still saved Damian if he hadn't been the "son of Dick's savior"?
    Lets not pretend Jason was just some poor lamb who lost his way. He was grown man murdering people. People needed to be saved from him. And call it favoritism if you want, Dick probably wouldn't have made Damian his Robin is he wasn't Bruce's son. He would have helped him if he wasn't, but probably not like he did. Dick was doing for Damian what Bruce did for him. Though if he was Bruce's newly adopted 10 year old son he would have look after that kid all the same. It's not really a blood thing.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 01-06-2020 at 04:17 PM.

  13. #2083
    Incredible Member Rakiduam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergard View Post
    Of course Jason was Dick's to save. Dick is supposed to be a hero. And heroes save people who need help. And Jason needed help. Even "grown ass men" (and women) sometimes need help from others, not just 10 year old kids. And I think it's a sad testimony for Dick when he only saved Damian because he is Bruce' blood. Don't you think Dick would have still saved Damian if he hadn't been the "son of Dick's savior"?
    Dick sending Jason to jail for 5 minutes, was basically a time off. Why are you pretending it was a big deal?

    On the other I do think Damian is Dick's favorite, Jason is the step brother you have to tolerate because your parents got remaried and only see on holidays and birthdays, and that is already too much.

  14. #2084
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakiduam View Post
    Dick sending Jason to jail for 5 minutes, was basically a time off. Why are you pretending it was a big deal?

    On the other I do think Damian is Dick's favorite, Jason is the step brother you have to tolerate because your parents got remaried and only see on holidays and birthdays, and that is already too much.
    Because it wasn't mean to be 5 minutes.
    Because he could have done better, and he didn't. And yes, that's a faultly decision, something that shows how human Dick is. He has his flaws, that often show when he's stressed, which was the case when he started as Batman. He was coming from a very stressful period of his life, and it showed.


    Guys, it's clear we hold different positions in this matter. What if we leave it here, stopping this pretty controversial discussion (we've already stated our thoughts), before we start to heat this sweet potato anymore?
    Last edited by Zaresh; 01-06-2020 at 04:30 PM.
    This is a signature. It has letters on it, and those letters form words. Words like these. I will not quote anything because I'm uninspired but, I read a lot: I could!

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  15. #2085
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    https://66.media.tumblr.com/8ad374b1...rrwb7v_540.png

    You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Not that Jason's actions weren't understandable due to his trauma, but you can't say that Dick didn't try.

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