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  1. #1576
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think in addition to that, his runs are more accessible and new reader friendly despite being packed with older references. If his stuff contradicts some older comics that a new reader may not care to even track down anyway, does it really matter?
    I wouldn't really call comics from the same continuity "old".
    Sticking with the established canon would have been imo as accessible for new reader, and more accessible for the old readers. While the number of readers that were really into the stories Morrison brought back, were probably quite small. And I don't really feel that the silver age stuff he brought back really added anything of worth to the Batman mythos.

  2. #1577
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I wouldn't really call comics from the same continuity "old".
    Sticking with the established canon would have been imo as accessible for new reader, and more accessible for the old readers. While the number of readers that were really into the stories Morrison brought back, were probably quite small. And I don't really feel that the silver age stuff he brought back really added anything of worth to the Batman mythos.
    Canon at DC has always been fluid to varying degrees. And yeah, the stories are older. Anything prior to the current story is by default older, and the goal is to make it accessible to new readers and old readers both. If a new reader picks up Morrison's run and enjoy it for its own merits, should they change their opinion if they are told "actually not all the details line up 100% with a previous story you haven't read and likely weren't going to anyway" or be allowed to not care?

    His run is one of the most successful in recent memory. Readers don't have to be into the stories he brought back to be into what he did with them (I never read a single one of them, but researched them after and thought the way he used them was cool). I don't think removing them from the mythos is adds anything either, but then I find the post-Crisis versions of the Trinity (more so Supes and Bats) had all the fun sucked out of them compared to the older versions anyway.

  3. #1578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Tim Drake needs to go. He's a creative sinkhole, void of any originality, and with this stupid 5 year time line he just clutters things up.

    Jason Todd needs to break bad again.

    I don't think Cass Cain is a very good character, and i don't think they should bring her back anytime soon. Sorry Cass fans. But with a five year time line there just really isn't the room for more characters who would, quite frankly, be with out a purpose or a role.

    Kate Kane needs more of a personality.

    DC has diminished "Nightwing" with the likes of Red Robin, Batwing, and new 52 Red Hood. So as much as i adore the Nightwing persona, i actually think that it might be good for Dick to ditch Nightwing for a bit. We have to many Nightwings right now.
    I'm sorry, but as a fan of both Cassandra and Tim, I have to disagree.

    What they need to do is throw out that ri-goddamn-diculous 5 year time line. It was arbitrary, only sporadically enforced, and in the case of the Bat family, made no damn sense. It meant that Bruce had FOUR different Robins in 5 years, and then none of their ages made sense.

    Both Tim and Cass can be great characters, and their old books showed this. But what was done to their characters in the New 52 (ESPECIALLY Tim) was beyond reprehensible, and should either be retconned back out of existence, or completely ignored.

  4. #1579
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    Controversy eh...

    Mr. Freeze's sympathetic backstory limits him. I love Victor's story, but I'd be lying if I said that he in that state is only good for maybe 3-5 stories.

    Gotham's rogues need to be toned down. I get that the only way to show someone is a threat is for them to have a body count, however I'd like to see some less hyper violence from some of the Arkham baddies. It gets harder and harder to justify them being taken in alive. While Batman isn't judge, jury, and executioner, it gets hard to believe that everyone in Gotham is as moral. Thus, I'd like to see some smaller stories where the villain is simply after a big score (you know a lot of the stuff some of the villains do cost money, and they can't steal EVERYTHING)

    Gotham's PD shouldn't rely on Batman. I get that it's the selling point of stories and Bruce's money makes him equipped to handle some of the crooks that the GPD can't. However there is a HUGE difference between someone like Clayface and someone like Zsasz.

  5. #1580
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Mr. Freeze's sympathetic backstory limits him. I love Victor's story, but I'd be lying if I said that he in that state is only good for maybe 3-5 stories.
    Someone else (or maybe it was you) said that earlier. I tend to agree, and started a thread on villains that needed a limited shelf life in response, since the post made me think about it.

    Gotham's rogues need to be toned down. I get that the only way to show someone is a threat is for them to have a body count, however I'd like to see some less hyper violence from some of the Arkham baddies. It gets harder and harder to justify them being taken in alive. While Batman isn't judge, jury, and executioner, it gets hard to believe that everyone in Gotham is as moral. Thus, I'd like to see some smaller stories where the villain is simply after a big score (you know a lot of the stuff some of the villains do cost money, and they can't steal EVERYTHING)
    A thousand times this. I agree so much. Also gets to a trend of having to top themselves over and over or "it doesn't matter" and people won't read. So, bigger and bigger body counts and more and more shocking gruesomeness follow. But that doesn't necessarily improve the stories. And, it makes it more unlikely to allow any villain-hero team-up (not that I like those, anyway) without making the heroes completely out of character for working with these baddies. Not that DC care if in-character gets in the way of potential sales.

    Then again, I guess the heroes have done those kind of team-ups often enough that it's no longer out of character, and instead just sad that they are so diminished morally.

    Also, it makes Batman seem ineffective as a hero. Sometimes something that big happens and he can't stop it - okay. But not this often. Especially if you go the route of Batman making the Joker (I don't like it, myself). Which ties into - Gotham needs to improve. If it's the same corrupt, crime-ridden cesspit after 10-20 years of Batman, what was the point? So the trick become a balancing act of keeping the city a certain amount bad while still seeing some improvement. And I know the progressively-worse-Gotham (via retcons and reboots rather than getting worse since Bruce donned the cowl in-universe) has been discussed before.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-20-2019 at 10:33 AM.

  6. #1581
    Incredible Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Tim's best costume was the one he had at the start of the New 52. The one with the wings.

  7. #1582
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Someone else (or maybe it was you) said that earlier. I tend to agree, and started a thread on villains that needed a limited shelf life in response, since the post made me think about it.
    Yeah That was me.

    A thousand times this. I agree so much. Also gets to a trend of having to top themselves over and over or "it doesn't matter" and people won't read. So, bigger and bigger body counts and more and more shocking gruesomeness follow. But that doesn't necessarily improve the stories. And, it makes it more unlikely to allow any villain-hero team-up (not that I like those, anyway) without making the heroes completely out of character for working with these baddies. Not that DC care if in-character gets in the way of potential sales.

    Then again, I guess the heroes have done those kind of team-ups often enough that it's no longer out of character, and instead just sad that they are so diminished morally.

    Also, it makes Batman seem ineffective as a hero. Sometimes something that big happens and he can't stop it - okay. But not this often. Especially if you go the route of Batman making the Joker (I don't like it, myself). Which ties into - Gotham needs to improve. If it's the same corrupt, crime-ridden cesspit after 10-20 years of Batman, what was the point? So the trick become a balancing act of keeping the city a certain amount bad while still seeing some improvement. And I know the progressively-worse-Gotham (via retcons and reboots rather than getting worse since Bruce donned the cowl in-universe) has been discussed before.
    It's kind of funny, it takes me back to what got me into comics in the first place (animation). Because they were for children, they had to be a bit more creative than filling graveyards anytime someone got out.

    While simply being greedy isn't one of the best motivations, sometimes its not WHAT you do, but HOW you do it which can drastically alter a story. Using an example of a cartoon doing the "steal money" approach, doing something like muscling your way into a bank to rob it is one way to steal money, but taking advantage of a troubled teen by lying to her about having an antidote to her condition only to discard them when you get what you needed (Static Shock episode), is quite a different approach for the same goal. (I mainly remember THAT specific instance due to Poison Ivy's line "Science ain't cheap huh".) I read this one Scarecrow story (I'll have to track it down) where he lied on broadcast saying he coated the city in fear gas to cause mass paranoia for the sole purpose of "study".

    I suppose I might as well throw in that the city being on the verge of collapse every week is ALSO starting to become old hat.
    Last edited by Mistah K88; 08-20-2019 at 11:23 AM.

  8. #1583
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    I never liked the concept of biological and also naturally loved and badass child Helena Wayne and that Earth 2 Batman retired - not the retirement itself, but the fact that they still said Batman is still needed and his kids still have to fight as heroes but he retired. What even is the point. If that was a real life situation I would say the reason he was killed was because he retired to soon.

    Golden Age Catwoman is better than any other version of her, tho. Really Bruces soulmate.

    golden Age Robin Dick is the best and most valid version of the character. Dc struggles with him in modern times because bar TT and NTt hes a shell of the Golden Age self .

    Oracle being Babs’ evil enemy is a GREAT idea for the character, her most fitting rogue yet, and one of the only things that can make her more interesting than a knock-off yet more arrogant and less likeable old school Batman. Pity it will go nowhere as the universe is right now.

  9. #1584
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    I never liked the concept of biological and also naturally loved and badass child Helena Wayne and that Earth 2 Batman retired - not the retirement itself, but the fact that they still said Batman is still needed and his kids still have to fight as heroes but he retired. What even is the point. If that was a real life situation I would say the reason he was killed was because he retired to soon.

    Golden Age Catwoman is better than any other version of her, tho. Really Bruces soulmate.

    golden Age Robin Dick is the best and most valid version of the character. Dc struggles with him in modern times because bar TT and NTt hes a shell of the Golden Age self .

    Oracle being Babsí evil enemy is a GREAT idea for the character, her most fitting rogue yet, and one of the only things that can make her more interesting than a knock-off yet more arrogant and less likeable old school Batman. Pity it will go nowhere as the universe is right now.
    What was wrong with Helena's parents loving her? And I'm pretty sure they said heroes were needed not merely Batman. The world he existed in wasn't that messed up so him retiring wasn't an issue.

    Golden Age Selina barely even qualified as a love interest.

    Oracle being a villain is just more of DC's tonedeafness.

  10. #1585
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    Tom King and anyone who likes his run all hate batman as a competent hero who might act like a bastard sometimes and actually succeeds in his mission
    Last edited by nonsense man; 08-21-2019 at 10:07 PM.

  11. #1586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Tim's best costume was the one he had at the start of the New 52. The one with the wings.
    I really liked that tbh

  12. #1587
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    What if there was no Batman family.

    In 1986, when they rebooted Superman, they got rid of the family and all the other Kryptonians. It was back to basics with Superman being the only survivor of the doomed planet. Of course, over time, the family gradually came back into the Superman comics. But what if DC had taken the same approach with Batman as they had with Superman. Dick Grayson wouldn't exist in the Teen Titans--instead like, with Valor and Laurel Gand in the Legion, a retcon character would become the Nightwing of that group, with no connection to Bruce. There would be no Robins, no Batgirls, no Bathounds.

    We would get a stripped down version of Batman--one man fighting the corruption in Gotham City with no other costumed allies to help him out. I imagine it would be like in many of the Batman movies, where Bruce has no assistance other than what comes from Alfred and Gordon.
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  13. #1588
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    What if there was no Batman family.

    In 1986, when they rebooted Superman, they got rid of the family and all the other Kryptonians. It was back to basics with Superman being the only survivor of the doomed planet. Of course, over time, the family gradually came back into the Superman comics. But what if DC had taken the same approach with Batman as they had with Superman. Dick Grayson wouldn't exist in the Teen Titans--instead like, with Valor and Laurel Gand in the Legion, a retcon character would become the Nightwing of that group, with no connection to Bruce. There would be no Robins, no Batgirls, no Bathounds.

    We would get a stripped down version of Batman--one man fighting the corruption in Gotham City with no other costumed allies to help him out. I imagine it would be like in many of the Batman movies, where Bruce has no assistance other than what comes from Alfred and Gordon.
    No.

    I don't like the "last Kryptonian" kind of thing to begin with. And erasing Dick's time as Robin, as well as the others, no. And when the New52 tried to shove 4 Robins into 5 years, that was just plain stupid.

  14. #1589
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    What if there was no Batman family.

    In 1986, when they rebooted Superman, they got rid of the family and all the other Kryptonians. It was back to basics with Superman being the only survivor of the doomed planet. Of course, over time, the family gradually came back into the Superman comics. But what if DC had taken the same approach with Batman as they had with Superman. Dick Grayson wouldn't exist in the Teen Titans--instead like, with Valor and Laurel Gand in the Legion, a retcon character would become the Nightwing of that group, with no connection to Bruce. There would be no Robins, no Batgirls, no Bathounds.

    We would get a stripped down version of Batman--one man fighting the corruption in Gotham City with no other costumed allies to help him out. I imagine it would be like in many of the Batman movies, where Bruce has no assistance other than what comes from Alfred and Gordon.
    Batman needs a Robin, specifically Dick Grayson. Everyone always paints this picture that he's always been a loner or needs to be a one man army. He only existed for 11 issues before Dick came along, not even a year.
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  15. #1590
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsense man View Post
    Tom King and anyone who likes his run all hate batman as a competent hero who might act like a bastard sometimes and actually succeeds in his mission
    that's not really a controversial take, it a pretty popular one on this site specifically, it's just kinda insulting and condescending. be nicer people dude, people have different taste, I actually like some (not all admittedly) of King's stuff and I don't hate Batman being competent; the bastard thing is contextual.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 08-24-2019 at 05:18 PM.
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