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  1. #2326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Clarification?
    For all the talk of how Watchmen influenced the dark age of the 90s, people forget that it was an elseworld tale while Batman's darkest stories actually take place in the mainstream universe. In addition, Batman is the number one example of how putting all your time and effort into one I.P. can leave you behind in your competition.

  2. #2327
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    For all the talk of how Watchmen influenced the dark age of the 90s, people forget that it was an elseworld tale while Batman's darkest stories actually take place in the mainstream universe. In addition, Batman is the number one example of how putting all your time and effort into one I.P. can leave you behind in your competition.
    Watchmen being an elseworld vs. Batman's stories being in (a constantly fluctuating) mainstream universe doesn't mean much. An influential story is an influential story. And they're all make believe anyway.

    That being said, Watchmen wasn't doing all this on its own, a lot of the blame comes from less talented creators taking the wrong lessons from it, and for Batman in particular TDKR takes significantly more blame for ruining him.

  3. #2328
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Watchmen being an elseworld vs. Batman's stories being in (a constantly fluctuating) mainstream universe doesn't mean much. An influential story is an influential story. And they're all make believe anyway.

    That being said, Watchmen wasn't doing all this on its own, a lot of the blame comes from less talented creators taking the wrong lessons from it, and for Batman in particular TDKR takes significantly more blame for ruining him.
    Yes, God yes.

  4. #2329
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Yes, God yes.
    Our of curiosity, what lesson do you think should have been taken from it?

    I have to admit, I agree with those about Batman being ruined. Don't like the grimdark that was made by Miller. Loathe what was done to Barbara in the Killing Joke (she could be paralyzed, but not that way, and I hate the background for the Joker, though that admittedly doesn't matter so much, since he spins tales). But they sold like hotcakes. They are loved. People talking about the best comic stories always pick the dark, depressing ones or the ones where villains have significant victories or heroes do bad things or die. Likewise, the repeated deaths and heel turns and huge events- I think they are detrimental in the long-run, but in short run, they move comics and bring in dollars. And that's an issue with Batman - he reached the #1 spot in DC comics and stayed there by behaving in a way I can't stand. Batgod and Batjerk bring in the bucks. So when talking about creative decisions we dislike, I think we have to acknowledge the part that business decisions and fan actions play in them.

  5. #2330
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    I can't answer for SeigePerilious02, but I can say how I interpret his words: what is the right lesson to learn? How to tell a story. What is the wrong lesson to learn? Batman is a person insane like Joker.

  6. #2331
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    what is the right lesson to learn? How to tell a story
    An answer like that is meaningless to me. It's like saying "good stories will sell" or "good characters will interest people" - so wide and generic that it has no value.

  7. #2332
    Fantastic Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, but I can't give you a more detailed answer, because I should write an entire sage about the creative writing techniques used by Miller in his comics and it would be impossible.

  8. #2333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Our of curiosity, what lesson do you think should have been taken from it?

    I have to admit, I agree with those about Batman being ruined. Don't like the grimdark that was made by Miller. Loathe what was done to Barbara in the Killing Joke (she could be paralyzed, but not that way, and I hate the background for the Joker, though that admittedly doesn't matter so much, since he spins tales). But they sold like hotcakes. They are loved. People talking about the best comic stories always pick the dark, depressing ones or the ones where villains have significant victories or heroes do bad things or die. Likewise, the repeated deaths and heel turns and huge events- I think they are detrimental in the long-run, but in short run, they move comics and bring in dollars. And that's an issue with Batman - he reached the #1 spot in DC comics and stayed there by behaving in a way I can't stand. Batgod and Batjerk bring in the bucks. So when talking about creative decisions we dislike, I think we have to acknowledge the part that business decisions and fan actions play in them.
    I don't think people pay for Batjerk.

    Noir compliments the character, and Batman is pretty popular to begin with. But unrelenting grimness leads to repetitive story telling. DD was stuck in a functional time loop until Mark Waid came along.

  9. #2334
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I don't think people pay for Batjerk.

    Noir compliments the character, and Batman is pretty popular to begin with. But unrelenting grimness leads to repetitive story telling. DD was stuck in a functional time loop until Mark Waid came along.
    Supposedly, Mark Waid's approach to DD was originally his pitch for Nightwing. As a huge fan of Miller's, Bendis,' Brubaker's, then Zdarsky's runs, I honestly think it would've been better on Nightwing.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  10. #2335
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Supposedly, Mark Waid's approach to DD was originally his pitch for Nightwing. As a huge fan of Miller's, Bendis,' Brubaker's, then Zdarsky's runs, I honestly think it would've been better on Nightwing.
    I have to disagree.

    DD was stuck in the grimness for decades with no reprieve.

    Waid worked to contrast DD outside of that. Given the enemies DD faced, I'm hard pressed to see how they could have been Nightwing stories beyond the main character not being totally crushingly depressed.

    DD was constantly being torn down between Miller and Waid. Waid brought fresh air DD needed.

  11. #2336
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I have to disagree.

    DD was stuck in the grimness for decades with no reprieve.

    Waid worked to contrast DD outside of that. Given the enemies DD faced, I'm hard pressed to see how they could have been Nightwing stories beyond the main character not being totally crushingly depressed.

    DD was constantly being torn down between Miller and Waid. Waid brought fresh air DD needed.
    Nightwing needed (hell, still needs) the kind of approach Waid used on DD. Given my favorite stories of each character, it would've been a perfect fit. I honestly tried his DD and it just wasn't my cup of tea.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  12. #2337
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Nightwing needed (hell, still needs) the kind of approach Waid used on DD. Given my favorite stories of each character, it would've been a perfect fit. I honestly tried his DD and it just wasn't my cup of tea.
    I don't disagree with Nightwing, and to each their own with DD.

    But Waid's DD exploited Matt's blindness/abilities for dramatic effect, something other writers largely neglected

  13. #2338
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I mean the issue is they don't know how to write Dick. I mean what makes him Dick Nightwing and not Robin. He has his own city but they never know what to do with it. It's also in the same State. Maybe he should be in between. I say this since Metropolis and Gotham are close. Dick has always been close to both of them. It was Clark who gave him the name Nightwing. Bludhaven could be written as a city somewhat like Metropolis. It's clean but at Dark many mobs and other gangs due their crimes. I also feel maybe how crime operations are different. They have a large entertainment business so they want to keep it. All crime is outsourced to keep a clean image.

  14. #2339
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    I didn't hate Alfred RIP.

    Honestly, Batjerk has had this sort of thing coming for sometime, and I'm glad he was finally called out on it. And honestly, I thought it was still toned down from what it probably should have been. Now some may disagree, but the way Bruce has been acting, for some time now, has needed to have consequences. Now, if Bruce hadn't been written as such a horrible person, then I would take issue. But as it is...

  15. #2340
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    I can't answer for SeigePerilious02, but I can say how I interpret his words: what is the right lesson to learn? How to tell a story. What is the wrong lesson to learn? Batman is a person insane like Joker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    An answer like that is meaningless to me. It's like saying "good stories will sell" or "good characters will interest people" - so wide and generic that it has no value.
    Basically what Gotham citizen said, but I'd add that that Moore was doing a dark deconstruction of superheroes without touching the actual big name superheroes. Now, he had originally planned this to be the actual Charlton characters, and he also had Twilight of the Superheroes planned, but none of that came to fruition. As it stands, it's a stand alone tale using new characters while leaving the big IPs alone.

    And the intentions by the author were that we weren't meant to like these people, particularly Rorschach. But other creators and fanboys saw the superficial "mature" elements (violence, drugs, sex, swearing) and deemed Rorschach's actions as cool and something to be consumed. And while the general gritty, violent anti hero trend for action heroes in the 80s was on the rise, Batman was grabbed and gradually morphed into such an asshole. TDKR was mainly to blame for this, but even that was meant by Miller to be a bad possible future while other creators started to emulate that story for mainstream, younger Batman.

    And it snowballed from there, and we're stuck with this asshole we have now. I choose to believe the real Batman was captured and placed in suspended animation around COIE and we've been stuck with a mentally unstable clone ever since

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